Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Bobert]

Originally Posted by casper

So basically your saying Translink just need to buy more cars and put them into service. Sounds like a plan. Lets do it.

The issue I think he raised is that a situation like his is leading more people away from bus usage.

Eventually you reach a place where no amount of increased bus hours will get rid of the unreliable image bus service has in surrey.

[Reecemartin]

Somehow it seems people in Vancouver are more worried about "annoying" car users with transit that people in Toronto, what has happened :0

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Bobert

Eventually you reach a place where no amount of increased bus hours will get rid of the unreliable image bus service has in surrey.

But if the reason that Surrey bus service is perceived as unreliable is that there are too many pass-ups, then surely more buses is the most sensible move in the short term. Especially when frequencies are so low. It's not like Surrey has the same kind of pass-up problem that exists along the Broadway corridor, where they're running buses on an almost Skytrain-like frequency.

[WarrenC12]

You know building the UBC line would free up a ton of big buses to be used elsewhere...

[bardak]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You know building the UBC line would free up a ton of big buses to be used elsewhere...

The business case for the full Broadway to UBC build has a decent operational savings which could be used to increase the service and reliability of the Surrey bus network.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by bardak

The business case for the full Broadway to UBC build has a decent operational savings which could be used to increase the service and reliability of the Surrey bus network.

I imagine a massive number of artics are required for the 99, but then again they've always been quite old from what I've seen so I'm not sure how much life is left in them. The XDE 60's on the 96 are really nice.

[Express691]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I imagine a massive number of artics are required for the 99, but then again they've always been quite old from what I've seen so I'm not sure how much life is left in them. The XDE 60's on the 96 are really nice.

Id say not much longer for older D60LF counterparts - there are 26 more XDE60 waiting for commissioning. Last we heard theyre still somewhere in Fort Langley because they have to commission the last of the 51 XN40s to Hamilton Yard (of which there are only 2 left needing to enter service.) Also given the fact that none of the Increases in April are on articulated routes.

https://flic.kr/p/PRVSUb
https://flic.kr/p/QYMmGo

Also: Board meeting minutes (March 30) suggest that 81 buses are needed for service increases throughout the next few service changes.

An RFP is on the translink page for 52 more artics in 2018 with options for the next couple years.

[Reecemartin]

We actually have a pretty nice fleet of buses in Metro Vancouver, However I'm actually surprised to say that Torontos is also quite modern.

[logan5]

It's too bad Surrey so bent on LRT. With all those hydro corridors and unused rail corridor, and the already designated LRT route, Surrey could have an excellent BRT network. A network that would put far more people within walking distance of rapid transit (compared to LRT).

[logicbomb]

I have come to realize that there is a limit to how far we can extend the Skytrain line without some major alterations. WB trains are already departing packed from KGB in the morning. This is leading to instances where commuters at Gateway and Scott Rd are having to wait 2-3 trains to get onboard. Imagine the increased ridership coming out of Fleetwood....

I think it comes down to this. Surrey is still a bedroom community and the recent influx of immigrants usually opt to settle down SOF due to the cheaper rent/home prices. You add those that have "downsized" NoF and settle in Surrey and it's becoming obvious that the high price of real-estate is playing a major factor in the hellish congestion plaguing roads and transit.

Vancouver continues to possess the more "high reward" employment opportunities. Finance and tech are big time employers and this will only attact more job seekers to apply downtown or within the developing tech hubs in False Creek/EVan. UBC/SFU/Douglas aren't going anywhere either...

Either there becomes a major push to (forcefully) redesign the region or push to add parallel rapid bus or high speed commuter rail service.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I have come to realize that there is a limit to how far we can extend the Skytrain line without some major alterations. WB trains are already departing packed from KGB in the morning. This is leading to instances where commuters at Gateway and Scott Rd are having to wait 2-3 trains to get onboard. Imagine the increased ridership coming out of Fleetwood....:???

This is one of the reasons why we need to split the Expo line at Columbia and have some trains go to Production Way. It provides a feed of less crowded trains to service people who live on the Vancouver side of the Fraser River.

I think the next major project after Broadway and whatever the heck Surrey ends up with may need to be some sort of relief line for Surrey residents heading into Vancouver.

[swimmer_spe]

... if only they would expand service on the WCE ...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

This is one of the reasons why we need to split the Expo line at Columbia and have some trains go to Production Way. It provides a feed of less crowded trains to service people who live on the Vancouver side of the Fraser River.

This probably belongs in Transit Fantasies, but perhaps they could twin the Columbia-22nd track & stations, make the Production Way Spur an independent line and extend it west? That'll allow the Expo to dedicate all its trains to Surrey at full 90-second frequency.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I have come to realize that there is a limit to how far we can extend the Skytrain line without some major alterations. WB trains are already departing packed from KGB in the morning. This is leading to instances where commuters at Gateway and Scott Rd are having to wait 2-3 trains to get onboard. Imagine the increased ridership coming out of Fleetwood....
.

If I was commuting from Gateway and frustrated with not getting on the packed trains, I would take a south-bound train to King George and then likely get a seat on the next north-bound train.

Which is more important? Comfort during the commute? Time to commute?

Adding 5 minutes to a commute to gain a comfortable seat may be a preferred trade-off.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If I was commuting from Gateway and frustrated with not getting on the packed trains, I would take a south-bound train to King George and then likely get a seat on the next north-bound train.

Which is more important? Comfort during the commute? Time to commute?

Adding 5 minutes to a commute to gain a comfortable seat may be a preferred trade-off.

This is a pretty key concern I've had for a while, theoretically extending the Expo Line to Langley will have a pretty dramatic impact on ridership. Along with further Development along the Expo Line route. The Broadway Subway can potentially relieve some crowding after Commerical Broadway but, that's not too helpful considering the fact that the Canada Line is also heavily trafficked.

I struggle to see a logical relief line route for Expo beyond Metrotown because TOD is based around clustering development right at the stations.

I imagine we will need a multi pronged approach to solve this problem. Trying to move passengers onto the Millenium Line is a big component, so maybe we will need to consider changing buses around when the time comes. Other than that we will need to see how far we can push the current infrastructure, which is actually still pretty open to increasing capacity.

We have the potential to:
Make all trains on Expo 5 car mark 3s with bench seats for increased capacity.
Get rid of the production spur, and perhaps replace it with a shuttle route (not optimal, but what else....)

Once we've done that which is still at least a decade off we will need to start planning new lines, and perhaps contemplate major expansions on the Expo Line.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by casper

So basically your saying Translink just need to buy more cars and put them into service. Sounds like a plan. Lets do it.

No I think what he is saying is that for many transit commuters in Surrey at least, it can take a long by transit for those living near Surrey Central and a SkyTrain station than those living further out in the "sprawl" because the closer to the core you get you end up with packed buses that pass you by or SkyTrains that also pass you by as they are full.

He is also right about Fraser Highway. I wouldn't even bother trying to catch a bus on Fraser Highway between 140th and 152nd near rush hour. You'll get passed by 4 or 5 before one stops and often you can walk the distance faster.

So often it ends up being that driving is way faster. I'm the same way to my work in South Delta. If I drive it takes me worse case 35 minutes from my door to work. If I take transit I need to wake up 1 1/2 hours earlier and the commute takes 1 hour 45 minutes.

Thus I drive because it saves me almost 2.5 hours every day in commuting and time is more important to me than money.

That said if you take SkyTrain the best station to live near is KGB right now thus why I own an apartment there.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

This is a pretty key concern I've had for a while, theoretically extending the Expo Line to Langley will have a pretty dramatic impact on ridership. Along with further Development along the Expo Line route. The Broadway Subway can potentially relieve some crowding after Commerical Broadway but, that's not too helpful considering the fact that the Canada Line is also heavily trafficked.

I struggle to see a logical relief line route for Expo beyond Metrotown because TOD is based around clustering development right at the stations.

I imagine we will need a multi pronged approach to solve this problem. Trying to move passengers onto the Millenium Line is a big component, so maybe we will need to consider changing buses around when the time comes. Other than that we will need to see how far we can push the current infrastructure, which is actually still pretty open to increasing capacity.

We have the potential to:
Make all trains on Expo 5 car mark 3s with bench seats for increased capacity.
Get rid of the production spur, and perhaps replace it with a shuttle route (not optimal, but what else....)

Once we've done that which is still at least a decade off we will need to start planning new lines, and perhaps contemplate major expansions on the Expo Line.

What if the L was a Skytrain going to the other end of Evergreen and the built a Skytrain along Hastings?

That would provide relief through multiple ways to Waterfront.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I have come to realize that there is a limit to how far we can extend the Skytrain line without some major alterations. WB trains are already departing packed from KGB in the morning. This is leading to instances where commuters at Gateway and Scott Rd are having to wait 2-3 trains to get onboard. Imagine the increased ridership coming out of Fleetwood....

That's not taking a whole view of the system.

There is literately no reason to use anything but the Skytrain LIM cars, anywhere on the system. We could even use those for the "LRT" Surrey wants with a few changes.

For example:
1) We use the LIM Rolling stock on the Expo and Millennium Lines. We can keep extending these lines until there is a geographical limit. Eg SFU.
2) We could even use those at grade by retrofitting them to have pantograph style third rail support. Then the same cars can be used on both. The reason why this won't happen is because the grade separation allows for cheaper, lighter, smaller cars made of carbon-composite/fiberglass/aluminum/plastic. Trains that operate at grade must be heavier, thus they have much longer stopping distances.
3) The computer controlled system allows for cars to connect and disconnect and form 4-car or 2-car trains at will. We don't currently use this as far as I'm aware.

If you use the same rolling stock and have all your rail lines connected and interlining on at least one segment, you have no points of failure except total failure.

The light rail system will only have "complete failure" because there is no way to route trains anywhere else, no way to bypass an accident, and so forth. This is why the Light Rail system is inferior to perhaps an articulated trolley-bus system, which can drive around an accident, or be disconnected from the wires, driven/towed down another road and then reconnected on the other side, or if there is a power failure, run the diesel/CNG/hybrid buses down those roads.

Honestly I can find very little support for "this" LRT, because nobody can find any positive argument without a hole in it. eg "it's cheaper" , yes and the BRT option is even cheaper in capital cost, or the Skyrtain is cheaper in operational costs. Had the LRT project been independent and about reusing some other ROW, there would not be this level of gnashing of teeth over it. this kind of LRT would have made more sense to connect Surrey-Delta-Ladner because Delta and Ladner are never going to build 40-story towers surrounded by farmland. Any automated surface "LRT" should replace an existing bus route where there is little chance of train/car or train/pedestrian interaction. But maybe we shouldn't bother and let Uber/Lyft/etc deal with these edge cases and last-mile cases instead of running buses with low frequency.

Essentially every corner you can cut with this light-rail project, is going to be used so Surrey gets a third-rate transit system.

It would have been better for everyone in Metro Vancouver had those been two or three Skytrain lines that just met at King George, and expand all the way to White Rock and Abbotsford at "some point", even if it doesn't make sense to build currently. No you might not actually get on a train at Guildford and end up at downtown Vancouver, but a complete network might actually have Maple Ridge and Port Coquitlam as another route out of Surrey to get to at least Commercial/Broadway. Computer Control can determine where the trains need to go, and this is something we should be embracing, not complicating with some third-rate non-integrated system.

Once we start seeing more information about this LRT, we can pick it apart and have zero impact on it like we did with the Canada Line.

[Reecemartin]

I think that you are completely right in that no single argument can justify the LRT because indeed it isn't the best option for ANY metric, however that doesn't mean that it can't be quite good for alot of metrics and hence still a good service overall.

The thing is the reason the L is okay imo is that the corridor isn't that likely to be extended into a dense area. The line as proposed isn't super long so LRT should be able to handle the traffic for a long time. I imagine most of the new high rises will be clustered around Central and the current Skytrain stations anyway. Obviously trolley buses have the benefit of being able to drive around accidents but, beyond that Im not sure there is any real advantage? In this case you can argue LRT has a capacity advantage, which it does.

Unfortunately I actually think the best system for comparison to this would be one of the ROW Toronto streetcar lines, I think it's the best way we can get a sense of what this type of line would look like in a Canadian context, since our other Canadian LRTs currently in operation are more like regional rail/metros. Im not sure looking at how ridership on systems in the US would transfer over since the US typically has somewhat lower ridership anyways (Chicago L has around 800,000 daily rides something which isn't very large considering the number of lines and Chicagos population). Most of the issues being presented in terms of constant accidents and shut downs do not happen on any regular basis on a ROW streetcar route and that doesn't even take into account the fact that Surreys LRT should have signal priority.

In the end I wish we were working on extending the Expo Line right now which is what I think most people would prefer. However short of a miracle we will not have the money to do that anytime soon. I don't think the idea of Surrey wanting a RT backbone that they can use to boost development is necessarily so bad and I honestly think that their might be more ridership to be gained in building up density on the LRT corridor than simply globally increasing bus service.

[logicbomb]

My argument is that the existing Skytrain network is going to achieve max capacity and BRT or LRT may aid inner-city movement in Surrey but this does nothing regionally.

High speed commuter rail needs to become a reality in the next decade. The City or Surrey should be pushing to use the old BC Hydro ROW an pushing all levels of govt to replace the Rail Bridge over the Fraser. From there, there is more than enough room to add a third track along the main BNSF/CN line.