Highways in Canada

[eemy]

Barriers like the tall-wall are actually designed to deflect the tire before hitting the vehicle, redirecting the car and potentially avoiding damage in some situations. A grassy median would probably be better, but if they aren't designed properly it can be possible for vehicles to cross the median into on-common traffic still.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Barriers like the tall-wall are actually designed to deflect the tire before hitting the vehicle, redirecting the car and potentially avoiding damage in some situations. A grassy median would probably be better, but if they aren't designed properly it can be possible for vehicles to cross the median into on-common traffic still.

My brother actually witnessed this happen about 10 years ago.

It was between Abbotsford and Chilliwack on the #1. This area has among the widest grass highway median in BC, with a decent ditch / dip in the middle, yet a drunk driver lost control, drove right across the median, and hit the car in front of my brother. I think 2 people died in that accident.

I am willing to bet that a concrete divider would have actually prevented these deaths.

[swimmer_spe]

The 401 through Toronto is 18 lanes wide with 9 lanes per side. There is no space for any grassy median.

In general, once a highway in Ontario has 3 lanes a side, the grassy median is gone and there is a Tall Wall in it's place, along with a new lane per side.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

My brother actually witnessed this happen about 10 years ago.

It was between Abbotsford and Chilliwack on the #1. This area has among the widest grass highway median in BC, with a decent ditch / dip in the middle, yet a drunk driver lost control, drove right across the median, and hit the car in front of my brother. I think 2 people died in that accident.

I am willing to bet that a concrete divider would have actually prevented these deaths.

Highways aren't intrinsically safe... though a passenger vehicle crossing a wide median does suggest the median wasn't particularly well designed.

Imagine, though, the consequences to a motorcyclist losing control and hitting a concrete wall vs. hitting a grassy median. For virtually any collision involving a motorcyclist, a median is going to involve a much more serious collision than not hitting one.

Any decision about placing a median vs. not placing a median should always involve a cost benefit analysis. In virtually all situations (unless the roadway is really narrow), placing a median will increase the number, and severity of collisions along the highway, even though it does reduce the risk of rare cross-over collisions.

BC doesn't do a great job with it's medians either. Notice the standard design in BC for the start of a concrete barrier doesn't involve any sort of energy attenuation:
https://goo.gl/DCUJJv

If a vehicle strikes this at the right angle, it can become airborne and potentially roll over.

Compare that to a more standard design, such as this, which will actually crumple the steel rail in order to dissipate the energy of a vehicle striking the terminal of the median:
https://goo.gl/sYezZl

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

My brother actually witnessed this happen about 10 years ago.

It was between Abbotsford and Chilliwack on the #1. This area has among the widest grass highway median in BC, with a decent ditch / dip in the middle, yet a drunk driver lost control, drove right across the median, and hit the car in front of my brother. I think 2 people died in that accident.

I am willing to bet that a concrete divider would have actually prevented these deaths.

It can definitely happen. After some high profile accidents Alberta Transportation installed cable median barriers along various sections of Highway 2. You can see them in the northern half of Calgary along this freeway. They don't cut the possibility of a vehicle crossing over to zero but they're supposed to come close to that figure.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I agree it is in theory safer, but I just don't see the big deal of not having one in places where it would be highly expensive to add.

It is safer--a lot safer--based on stats. Compromising safety because of costs should never be done because once you allow the government to get away with it in one situation they'll push to do it in others. The cost "excuse" is a major reason why certain sections of highway in B.C. have such horrible safety records. How many people have to die and/or be critically injured before action is taken?

[Metro-One]

Highways are not divided by wide medians throughout the world. Nearly all in japan just use a concrete barrier, same in Europe, same in many places in Canada! Look at highways around Montreal or any big city.

A big grassy wide median is a luxury item. Unless the rest of the country here wants to help subsidize BC in building highways, given our far higher prices per km due to our geography, via creating a national highway program, it is not going to happen. Look at the kicking hose canyon. Look at the price per km for that one section. Most expensive in Canadian history, yet it is still only being divided by a concrete barrier.

In BC we have only two types of land to build highways on, the shoulders of cliffs and hill sides, or super expensive valley bottoms. Both prohibit super wide grassy medians due to high cost.

Seriously, there are many real issues to worry about with BC highways (lack of passing lanes, interchanges, etc..) Those are real issues that should be fixed. the lack of a wide grassy median? Umm, no. BC is not the prairies. It is not even Southern Ontario for having wide flat expanses of land. So they are not going to happen in general in BC, especially along such corridors as the #1 and #97 going through mountains and running along cliff sides.

We have a relatively small population to support building highways through numerous long and difficult corridors. Even where it is relatively cheap to do so it is still not going to happen anymore, wasting all that money for a wide median in one spot is going to leave many other highways without even basic safety enhancement. 4 lane highways with concrete median barriers are pretty common throughout the developed world, it is not as if this is some oddity.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Highways are not divided by wide medians throughout the world. Nearly all in japan just use a concrete barrier, same in Europe, same in many places in Canada! Look at highways around Montreal or any big city.

A big grassy wide median is a luxury item. Unless the rest of the country here wants to help subsidize BC in building highways, given our far higher prices per km due to our geography, via creating a national highway program, it is not going to happen. Look at the kicking hose canyon. Look at the price per km for that one section. Most expensive in Canadian history, yet it is still only being divided by a concrete barrier.

[Bold]In BC we have only two types of land to build highways on, the shoulders of cliffs and hill sides, or super expensive valley bottoms.[/Bold] Both prohibit super wide grassy medians.

Seriously, there are many real issues to worry about with BC highways (lack of passing lanes, interchanges, etc..) Those are real issues that should be fixed. the lack of a wide grassy median? Umm, no. BC is not the prairies. It is not even Southern Ontario for having wide flat expanses of land. So they are not going to happen in general in BC, especially along such corridors as the #1 and #97 going through mountains and running along cliff sides.

Don't you think the bolded part above is rather hyperbolic? The vast majority of major highways in B.C. could have grass medians for most of their length. Of course there are places where it would be very hard to do this but I don't buy they can't be divided.

[GreaterMontréal]

Look at highways around Montreal or any big city.

as soon as you leave the island, all the highways loses their concrete barrier.

[Metro-One]

I know that, but the point is that the highways in the city are still first world designed highways.

A concrete median barrier is a divided highway.

I feel only on this thread would such an aspect be given so much weight.

Read my post again. If we had a federal program where the entire nation could help subsidize our highways a grass median would be far more possible. As is now we have too many regions in BC to upgrade with too small of a population.

Look at the Kicking Horse, look at the GMT replacement project, look how much those relatively small project cost alone. Then realize we also have to upgrade highways on then Island, in the Kootenys, the Cariboo, the north east corner, out to the North Coast, and even to isolated places such as Bella Colla where even a 2 lane road is extremely expansive. Rivers, Deltas, Inlets, islands, Mountain Ranges and Canyons oh my!

Using a design standard (4 lanes, median concrete barrier) that is found throughout many western and developed nations is not a problem. What I worry about is grade separation (more interchanges) and having a barrier at all.

[sonysnob]

Obviously, there are going to be locations where it is impractical to build a highway with a grassy median. This is true in BC, and it is true in every other jurisdiction.

While there are locations in BC where the topography makes highway building very expensive, there are also locations where that is not true. Hwy 97 for example runs primarily through valleys. That's not to say that the topography of the highway is never a constraint, but it would be unfair to say that BC's MoT would be prohibited from building a divided highway for the highways entire length.

Finally, probably the best evidence that highways can be built with grassed medians would be look at the roads that were built with grassed medians in BC. Both the Okanogan Connector and the Coke were built with (albeit narrow) grassed medians.

It would certainly be impracticable to think that Kicking Horse Pass would be build to the same design as Hwy 75 in Manitoba. But, that said, it's equally impractical to think that every highway in BC needs to be built to the same design as what would be required in Kicking Horse Pass.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

It is safer--a lot safer--based on stats. Compromising safety because of costs should never be done because once you allow the government to get away with it in one situation they'll push to do it in others. The cost "excuse" is a major reason why certain sections of highway in B.C. have such horrible safety records. How many people have to die and/or be critically injured before action is taken?

Highways, overall, in Canada are less safe than highways in the UK (and elsewhere), where there are virtually no grass medians. It's not the be all and end all.

[swimmer_spe]

In parts of BC, the only way to have a real median is to have the directions at different heights. Otherwise, the dangers of driving next to a high cliff are not worth it.

If you are commenting on BC designs without driven in BC, I suggest you take a road trip. If you have never driven out of the Lower mainland, I suggest a trip to Squamish. The Sea to Sky highway along the coast is a great example of the challenges that exist throughout the interior.

Much of Highway 1 runs through towns and cites. They need to be bypassed. So, along the side of the mountains you go.

BC ain't no Saskatchaflatland. Of all the provinces, it is the most challenging to build anything in. Roads run along mountains. One side is a cliff wall going up, the other, a shear drop off.

[Acajack]

Grassy medians are rare in most parts of the world where it seems they are a "luxury" due to the scarcity of open land and the higher cost of expropriating land needed for them, as opposed to less land needed for a highway with some sort of barrier.

Even in the countryside in most of the world it's barrier you see, not a grassy median.

[The Chemist]

I personally prefer highways with barriers rather than grassy medians. In China they put hedges or metal panels on top of the central barrier which block headlights from cars on the other side of the highway. It really makes night driving way more comfortable when you're not worried about being blinded by oncoming cars.

[sonysnob]

^ Most jurisdictions in North America have discontinued the use of glare screens. Depending upon the design, they are prone to be damaged during collisions, and then can be expensive and labour intensive to replace and repair. This has been one of the driving factors in the height increases in concrete median barriers that has occurred in the last several decades.

[eemy]

Yeah, I find the tall wall barriers do a good job of blocking glare. You still see oncoming headlights, but the angle is rarely such that it's bothersome.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

^ Most jurisdictions in North America have discontinued the use of glare screens. Depending upon the design, they are prone to be damaged during collisions, and then can be expensive and labour intensive to replace and repair. This has been one of the driving factors in the height increases in concrete median barriers that has occurred in the last several decades.

In Ontario, the Queensway (Hwy 417) going through the main part of Ottawa still has glare screens. I believe it's because the median concrete barrier which was done back in the 1980s is a Jersey barrier which is shorter than a Tall Wall.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Loco101

In Ontario, the Queensway (Hwy 417) going through the main part of Ottawa still has glare screens. I believe it's because the median concrete barrier which was done back in the 1980s is a Jersey barrier which is shorter than a Tall Wall.

I always wondered what those things were sticking out of the barrier, and why the barrier itself is shorter than the ones in other parts of Ontario. That explains it.

I personally don't find what's there now particularly effective at reducing glare, especially these days with the number of souped up SUVs with perpetual highbeams.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I always wondered what those things were sticking out of the barrier, and why the barrier itself is shorter than the ones in other parts of Ontario. That explains it.

I personally don't find what's there now particularly effective at reducing glare, especially these days with the number of souped up SUVs with perpetual highbeams.

About half of them seem to be broken off...