The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[saintjohnirish☘]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Do you have any numbers to back up any of these statements?

I've come across the number before, in a quick google search i found a mention of it: http://www.intelligentcommunity.org/saint_john_new_brunswick

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'd say SJ is less precarious than people seem to think. There's a lot of industry in the city that completely flies under the radar. Industries like health sciences and research at UNBSJ/Regional Hospital are examples.

Exactly, what you point out as less precarious are the stable public sector jobs I am talking about and we need more of them. Who is going to invest in a economy in decline? Not a wise investment from a private business perspective. We need the state for that

Originally Posted by JHikka

Asking for federal aid is admitting defeat. It's admitting that you messed up and you alone cannot think of any way out of it. SJ's situation isn't that bad, and from a financial standpoint Saint John's debt service cost as a % of total expenditures is lower now than it was 15 years ago (floats around 10%) - it's lower than Moncton, Dieppe, Bathurst, Campbellton, Edmundston...

What does it say to local business when the city admits defeat like that? What does it say to local residents that it's admitted defeat? It would put an end to any momentum in any category you can think of and would evaporate any belief or confidence in the local business market.

This is one of those inherant problems with business folk: they spew good news and almost never come to grips with reality out of fear of scaring away business. You would hope anyone looking to invest would develop a sound business plan and look at the economic, demographic indicators and not just the boosterism you always see. It is not admitting anything other than the reality that this city is in decline and needs help, not a end all be all, but a bit of a boost. If we were successful in attaining some public sector jobs/gov offices what have you, it would only help the businesses in the city anyway. It's a win-win.

The whole idea of "admitting defeat" insinuates we have control over our place in the global economy or over the market. One fact of globalism is that it has taken away agency from government and smaller jurisdictions. Like I said, the decline is out of our control now

Originally Posted by JHikka

Would you care to provide a solution?

I've already argued one. And I agree with you on the need to diversify. Which a boost in public sector jobs would help with. At this point, it is Irving we need to get away from depending on, not the public sector. I haven't been able to find it yet, but I have heard there was a report years ago looking into the Irving monopoly, and that because they are such a large player and own so much, they scare away other businesses from coming in. Makes perfect sense.

I just came across an interesting bit from CBC. Irving even stopped selling Simms brushes at their Kent stores in 2012. Simms was struggling. And you know the rest... Irving got the land, tore down Simms, and used government funds to expand. Vague, but knowing them, they had planned it all along.

What I am saying is if Irving is scaring away business, and the global market has neglected Saint John, Keynesian economics is the best solution as it stands.

Public sector employment isn't defeat. Allowing Irving to turn Saint John into a company town is.

[Fischbob]

The JDI parking garage goes before PAC this month for Section 39 conditions related to the project. Some additional plans and renders can be found starting on page 45 of this PDF: http://www.saintjohn.ca/site/media/SaintJohn/PAC%20Package%20February%202017.pdf

[uptownres]

I live right next to the proposed garage. While I'm not opposed to the notion of replacing multiple surface lots with a garage, I'm not sure that I understand the need to fill in a city street and occupy several lots that were once residential lots. Is there not sufficient space adjacent to the JDI headquarters on Union for a multi-story parking garage?

I'm not trying to be NIMBY (even if it would literally be in my back yard - the renderings are from my building) - just trying to retain space to keep that uptown population boom going!

Beyond that, Wentworth is a notoriously slippery and steep slope for cars in the winter. Putting the entrance to the garage at Elliot Row & Wentworth would strike me as a sketchy move. Wouldn't it make more sense to put it on Carmarthen?

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by uptownres

I live right next to the proposed garage. While I'm not opposed to the notion of replacing multiple surface lots with a garage, I'm not sure that I understand the need to fill in a city street and occupy several lots that were once residential lots. Is there not sufficient space adjacent to the JDI headquarters on Union for a multi-story parking garage?

I'm not trying to be NIMBY (even if it would literally be in my back yard - the renderings are from my building) - just trying to retain space to keep that uptown population boom going!

Beyond that, Wentworth is a notoriously slippery and steep slope for cars in the winter. Putting the entrance to the garage at Elliot Row & Wentworth would strike me as a sketchy move. Wouldn't it make more sense to put it on Carmarthen?

I have to agree, I don't understand why they prefer the former Elliott Row over the lot they own on Union next door. Then again, I was against selling
Elliott Row in the first place because it meant losing its development potential, so my objection to this project is moot I suppose since the City already made the first deal, the development of that block is basically impossible now.

The other thing that always bugs me is that they talk about consolidating parking from sixteen other surface lots into this parking structure, but make no mention of intent to divest themselves of those surface lots for commercial, residential or other development. If they build this garage and also sell of land, then I'm all in favour because it'll really help the neighbourhood, but they haven't given any indication that they intent to do so, and JDI is notorious for never giving up land they already own.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by kwajo

I have to agree, I don't understand why they prefer the former Elliott Row over the lot they own on Union next door. Then again, I was against selling
Elliott Row in the first place because it meant losing its development potential, so my objection to this project is moot I suppose since the City already made the first deal, the development of that block is basically impossible now.

The other thing that always bugs me is that they talk about consolidating parking from sixteen other surface lots into this parking structure, but make no mention of intent to divest themselves of those surface lots for commercial, residential or other development. If they build this garage and also sell of land, then I'm all in favour because it'll really help the neighbourhood, but they haven't given any indication that they intent to do so, and JDI is notorious for never giving up land they already own.

I agree with you. I always thought a garage on union would make sense, and didn't like the prospect of closing a city street. I hope at least they sell the surplus land to developers.

[michael_d40]

Originally Posted by Helladog

I agree with you. I always thought a garage on union would make sense, and didn't like the prospect of closing a city street. I hope at least they sell the surplus land to developers.

I've always thought it was because they could easily build a carbon building in the lot next door and simply connect them with a pedway. I don't foresee it happening, but if it were to happen, they already have the land cleared and would be able to do that, and just add a few more levels to the parking garage they are building on Elliott Row.

[saintjohnirish☘]

In museum news, nothing budgeted for a new building (maybe on the waterfront?)

Was surprised to see $76 million for a government office in Fredericton though. You'd think the oldest continuing museum in Canada's oldest incorporated city would be a 'Canada 150' priority, no? Especially given the state of the museums facilities.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/tourism-centennial-building-canada-150-1.3992721

[CdnEh]

Why the hell is the renovation of an office building being touted as a "Canada 150" project

What cultural significance does an office building have?

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

Why the hell is the renovation of an office building being touted as a "Canada 150" project

What cultural significance does an office building have?

It's New Brunswick's finest contribution to 20th-Century architecture, and it was originally built as a 1967 Centennial Project. It's a reminder of a turning point in NB, Canadian and Western culture.

I am very in favour of including the museum, but it's undeniable that the Centennial building is deserving of Canada 150.

[saintjohnirish☘]

The museum should no doubt be the priority. The centennial is just an office building from the 60s, not the finest era of architecture. Even if it was, it is still just an office building

[Freddypop]

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

The museum should no doubt be the priority. The centennial is just an office building from the 60s, not the finest era of architecture. Even if it was, it is still just an office building

Not just an office building. Has cultural and historical value as well as the home of the new NB Court of Queens Bench and Chief Justice (Our supreme court) which is currently falling apart. Saint John and Moncton have recently received court upgrades. Our turn.

http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/news/news_release.2017.01.0033.html

http://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Depar...trimoine/HistoryOfCentennialBuilding.pdf

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by Freddypop

Not just an office building. Has cultural and historical value as well as the home of the new NB Court of Queens Bench and Chief Justice (Our supreme court) which is currently falling apart. Saint John and Moncton have recently received court upgrades. Our turn.

http://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/news/news_release.2017.01.0033.html

http://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Depar...trimoine/HistoryOfCentennialBuilding.pdf

Not only that but it was also a major named project for the Centennial in 1967 which is now in need of work. So the logic seems to make sense to upgrade this facility to keep the original investment alive...along the same vein I'm hoping to see some investment into Centennial Park for Moncton which could use a new bridge (planned about 5 years ago but hasn't happened yet). Is there a "Centennial" project in SJ that may be in the same boat? I have a feeling there is but it's slipping my mind.

[saintjohnirish☘]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

Not only that but it was also a major named project for the Centennial in 1967 which is now in need of work. So the logic seems to make sense to upgrade this facility to keep the original investment alive...along the same vein I'm hoping to see some investment into Centennial Park for Moncton which could use a new bridge (planned about 5 years ago but hasn't happened yet). Is there a "Centennial" project in SJ that may be in the same boat? I have a feeling there is but it's slipping my mind.

Yeah I believe so... Centennial School in the north end, and the provincial government is trying to close it

NB Museum on Douglas Ave— a public space— is literally falling apart. It is greek revival which they also are talking about tearing down. It's unacceptable. The provincial museum trumps a government office

[UptownJeff]

I understand that there is a press conference tomorrow at 10 with the Feds, discover Saint John and the city. Wonder what this is about.

[Franco401]

People need to understand that nobody in charge of this sat down and said,

Museum? NAH, we'll just repair our government office (because we here at Trudeau Government, inc. are so greedy) while the provincial museum sits and rots. Wow, I sure do hate New Brunswick.

If you wanted the museum to be a Canada 150 project you should have campaigned to make it one.

Just because the Centennial Building got on the list doesn't mean the museum will never be fixed. It's also not "just an office building", it's a culturally significant building that only really got Canada 150 status because the province is building the new courthouse anyway.

Even if you hate it architecturally (I love it) the significance of the Centennial Building is undeniable. It's the province's strongest reminder of an era that revolutionized our economy, worldview, language and way of life.

The museum will get what it needs, we might just have to wait. Neither the feds or province are stupid enough to let it go too far. I don't see how it suddenly becomes so much more important to address the museum issue when people here weren't up in arms until somebody pointed fingers at Fredericton.

[CdnEh]

So the only argument for the Centennial Building being "culturally significant" is the fact that it was built 50 years ago?

The Centennial building is an asbestos-filled concrete box office building. It is not culturally, nor even architecturally significant in any way. It is as cookie cutter as a 1960s era office building can get. Might as well have invested those millions into Brunswick Square if that is the criteria.

As of last year, the building was only 32% occupied. Thirty two.

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by Franco401

People need to understand that nobody in charge of this sat down and said,



If you wanted the museum to be a Canada 150 project you should have campaigned to make it one.

Just because the Centennial Building got on the list doesn't mean the museum will never be fixed. It's also not "just an office building", it's a culturally significant building that only really got Canada 150 status because the province is building the new courthouse anyway.

Even if you hate it architecturally (I love it) the significance of the Centennial Building is undeniable. It's the province's strongest reminder of an era that revolutionized our economy, worldview, language and way of life.

The museum will get what it needs, we might just have to wait. Neither the feds or province are stupid enough to let it go too far. I don't see how it suddenly becomes so much more important to address the museum issue when people here weren't up in arms until somebody pointed fingers at Fredericton.

The point is that the NB Museum needs it NOW. The roof is literally on the verge of collapse due to years of neglect and underfunding. They can't just say "well, better luck next time."

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

As of last year, the building was only 32% occupied. Thirty two.

If anything, that makes a good case for the need to renovate it.

The NBM building on Douglas Avenue definitely needs work urgently, but I agree that it's a mistake to label this an either/or situation. There's no reason to believe that not working on the Centennial Building would translate into working on the museum instead.

[WharfRat]

Originally Posted by Ire Narissis

The NBM building on Douglas Avenue definitely needs work urgently, but I agree that it's a mistake to label this an either/or situation. There's no reason to believe that not working on the Centennial Building would translate into working on the museum instead.

Exactly! I see no correlation between the two.

Do we even know if funds where requested or a proposal was submitted. Has anyone concerned contacted the museum, their MLA or MP? We know the City missed the first deadline for Canada 150 funding.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunsw...anada-150-funding-deputy-mayor-1.3928493

[saintjohnirish☘]

Maybe it isn't a question of it being an either/or situation. But it is a question of priority and urgency. So to sink $76 million into a 50-year old government office when the provincial public museum, which happens also to be a much older greek-revival structure on the verge of ruin, is clearly an outrageous move. The museum has been asking for only $40 million of funding for a decade, it's not new.