The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by Franco401

Poking around today I saw that Google Maps has added their 3D earth view for Quispamsis/Rothesay.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4336278,-65.9716931,593a,20y,72.45h,53.16t/data=!3m1!1e3

Very cool. Hopefully this means SJ, Moncton or even Freddy are next.

Poked around on that a bit - Seems its updated as far as Hampton, and includes YSJ. Very cool indeed.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.331816,-65.8905292,306a,20y,180h,41.64t/data=!3m1!1e3

[cdnguys]

Liquid Gold and Scotiabank North End are closing. Thai express now open in B Sq

[Fischbob]

The TJ is reporting that the Jellybean Buildings on Wellington Row (as well as 2 other buildings at Union and Wellington) are slated to be demolished sometime before May 1st.

The silver lining is that Saint John Non-Profit Housing is planning a "32-to-40 unit" mixed-income apartment building for the site, and are hoping to break ground by the fall (contingent on federal and provincial funding). Here's hoping the site isn't vacant for long.

[kwajo]

I was under the impression that SJNPH was going to keep some [or all] of the facade despite the demolition, anyone have more project knowledge on this? I'm thrilled that 32-40 units would be on that site, we desperately need more housing options and I'm always a fan of density increases, but obviously it would be a shame to lose these iconic structures.

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Liquid Gold and Scotiabank North End are closing. Thai express now open in B Sq

That's a bit surprising the North End ScotiaBank would close, though I guess it's been plagued with security problems over the last 15 years. That'd probably scare anyone off.

That would mean the only true full-service bank left in the North End would be the Royal Bank at Lansdowne Place. That's a bit sad how things would've gotten to be like that. I don't count the PC Financial bank branch in the Somerset St. SuperStore as a full service bank, due to no tellers or private office rooms for people to talk with the employees there.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Fischbob

The silver lining is that Saint John Non-Profit Housing is planning a "32-to-40 unit" mixed-income apartment building for the site, and are hoping to break ground by the fall (contingent on federal and provincial funding). Here's hoping the site isn't vacant for long.

As long as it's developed without any considerable on-site parking similar to the apartments that went up recently on Waterloo. It would be great to have more people living on Union but we need to start ensuring that new developments are pedestrian-oriented. The ANBL across the street sort of blurs the line between urban and suburban build.

Originally Posted by RaginRonic

That's a bit surprising the North End ScotiaBank would close, though I guess it's been plagued with security problems over the last 15 years. That'd probably scare anyone off.

The Sobeys at Lansdowne has security staff on site. A few minutes away the Superstore on Somerset doesn't. One of the reasons why ANBL relocated from Lansdowne to Somerset.

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by JHikka

As long as it's developed without any considerable on-site parking similar to the apartments that went up recently on Waterloo. It would be great to have more people living on Union but we need to start ensuring that new developments are pedestrian-oriented. The ANBL across the street sort of blurs the line between urban and suburban build.


The Sobeys at Lansdowne has security staff on site. A few minutes away the Superstore on Somerset doesn't. One of the reasons why ANBL relocated from Lansdowne to Somerset.

What I find odd about that quote is that it sounds like the Crescent Valley area might be a bit safer than the Old North End is. o.o

By the way, when is the North End ScotiaBank going to close it's doors? Mid-March or something like that?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by RaginRonic

What I find odd about that quote is that it sounds like the Crescent Valley area might be a bit safer than the Old North End is. o.o

This is more well-suited to the Retail thread of course but...from my anecdotal evidence I get the feeling that Somerset is much more of a destination for Millidgeville residents than C-Valley residents. Superstore is very much the Millidgeville grocery story and Lansdowne Sobeys is the North End/C-Valley grocery story. More C-Valley residents head down to Lansdowne than Somerset simply because there's more to do there. Afterall, Lansdowne has a Tim's, convenience stores, dollar store, and a bar or two.

Crescent Valley is in no way safer than North End, per se. They're both roughly equal. The thing with the North End is that it's been mostly emptied of all the criminal element that existed there over the past fifteen years (you can see this in the Census mapping). Now it's mostly just the poor and the working class left with some renovating occurring. Once all of the empty, boarded-up buildings are renovated we'll hopefully see a better class of tenant enter. Five/ten years ago you could head down Main Street on any given day/night and find drug dealers on various corners - that doesn't really exist any more, at least not on the street level. There's been some slow and steady change but the reputation won't change for years and years afterwards.

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by JHikka

As long as it's developed without any considerable on-site parking similar to the apartments that went up recently on Waterloo. It would be great to have more people living on Union but we need to start ensuring that new developments are pedestrian-oriented. The ANBL across the street sort of blurs the line between urban and suburban build.

I'm pretty sure the large parking lot next to the new complex on Waterloo predate the buildings. While the units themselves have indoor parking, that lot will likely be occupied by more buildings in the future.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Franco401

I'm pretty sure the large parking lot next to the new complex on Waterloo predate the buildings. While the units themselves have indoor parking, that lot will likely be occupied by more buildings in the future.

My point was that the new development on Waterloo was created with minimal parking.

"Without any considerable parking similar to."

Waterloo is a good example of what we should be striving for. The original proposal for that site had surface parking IIRC and they were sent back to redevelop with fewer spaces.

[Franco401]

AH. Gotcha. I do agree, that's a great example of the type of development Saint John could use in its many parking craters. More development of that style can only do good.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by kwajo

I was under the impression that SJNPH was going to keep some [or all] of the facade despite the demolition, anyone have more project knowledge on this? I'm thrilled that 32-40 units would be on that site, we desperately need more housing options and I'm always a fan of density increases, but obviously it would be a shame to lose these iconic structures.

Just a personal opinion. Every time I pass these buildings my second impression (my first being how horrific the peeling paint looks) is that the sills are all rotting, and I wouldn't doubt that every window is as well, or has in the past. I just don't see how any of that original facade structure would ever come apart from the rest of the structure in a fashion that would permit it to be re-used.

[saintjohnirish☘]

RE: Census 2016.
It really seems that we are not waking up to how bad things are getting in the city. As SJHDC's Randy Hatfield has said, where is the outrage? It isn't sustainable on so many levels. Some kind of federal economic recovery plan at this point seems to be the only way out of this. We need permanent jobs and investment injected into the city as Canada's only shrinking CMA.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

RE: Census 2016.
It really seems that we are not waking up to how bad things are getting in the city.

People complain about the state of the city on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

As SJHDC's Randy Hatfield has said, where is the outrage?

You can read the TJ or go online and read about people upset with how the city is run on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

It isn't sustainable on so many levels.

What isn't sustainable? Population decline? Saint John had population growth between 2006 and 2011.

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

Some kind of federal economic recovery plan at this point seems to be the only way out of this.

Or just a better plan from the municipal level and provincial politicians that understand how poorly written and administered the Municipalites Act is. That would go a long way to alleviating a lot of the poor decisions made by past councils and governments in general. There's no precedent for a federal economic recovery plan for a municipality.

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

We need permanent jobs and investment injected into the city as Canada's only shrinking CMA.

We have permanent jobs and investment. What we need to stop doing is looking for help from outside and start developing sound policy and decision-making from within the city.

Saint John is declining because for X number of years the City was poorly run from the top-down. Those years are more-or-less past us and we're slowly starting to work out of it. In order to grow there's going to have to be growing pain years and we went through those between 2011 and 2016. Growth in the Uptown is occurring and will continue to occur, investments in industrial activity such as the Port and Spruce Lake are increasing, and we're beginning to move away from atrocious suburban development in favour of urban redevelopment. We shouldn't be ringing alarm bells because a federal census which is notorious for undercounts has us declining.

Just because we don't have that big fancy short-term industrial project doesn't mean we're in some sort of massive decline. People in this city really need to readjust and realize that economic diversification and a stronger urban core are what's going to get the city into the growth column. Trying things that might have worked forty years ago are going to fail over and over again.

What got Saint John into a declining mess in the first place? Anticipating and relying on big industrial projects to come and save us. We can't rely on that anymore as a basis for sustaining the city.

[Joe]

Public sector employment is low here compared to other Atlantic Canadian cities. The link below is from 2011 but you get the idea. Say we had another 2000 Federal works here, it would certainly make a difference.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/govt58a-eng.htm

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Joe

Public sector employment is low here compared to other Atlantic Canadian cities. The link below is from 2011 but you get the idea. Say we had another 2000 Federal works here, it would certainly make a difference.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/govt58a-eng.htm

This is exactly the line of thinking that I think we should be avoiding. The process of thinking like: We're having issues so we need somebody else to step in and save us. As I explained in the previous post I think we really need Made in Saint John solutions to this. We can't solely rely on the feds, or larger corporations with no ties to the city, or projects dependent on economic conditions elsewhere in order to grow the city. They can be added to initiatives already being undertaken, of course, but they shouldn't be our main goal.

I think we can do a lot better than sitting on our hands and waiting for the feds to gift us jobs. Nobody owes us anything.

[saintjohnirish☘]

Hard to imagine people still clinging to Energy East to change the tide, or any single Irving project. That is not at all what I am suggesting. I am saying that despite nominal growth in 06-11, Saint John is severely declining. It has been hit hard with the largest loss per capita in manufacturing from the 80s to 2000s in Canada, poverty is not getting better-- and it seems Irving's grip on the city has been steadily growing.

Halifax, Fton, Mton all have strong public sector stability. It is typical in any growing/stable city. We don't have that. Saint John is incredibly precarious, which is why we saw a decline after slight growth (that slight growth of 06-11 was the first increase in decades). I mean, how can we deny that it is out of our control now? We absolutely do need federal aid-- and there's no shame in that.

You can interpret that however you wish, but the fact remains we can't wait for the market to turn around. Walk any street outside a block or two of new gentrification uptown and you can see it. We can't be a city that lives and dies on the private sector.

Who do we see complain about how the city is run in the TJ? Come on, Irving is never happy with government. They are radical billionaires who would sooner run the city themselves

Monopoly and poverty are the problems. The former exacerbates the latter. Saint Johners have to start thinking systematically.

[cdnguys]

Energy East will result in less jobs in Saint John. 200 jobs are directly related to railing in oil from the west. Pipeline will eliminate those jobs and there will be a handful of jobs created running export terminal. We need to forget about big projects that never materialize and grow organically. IT sector is underreported - IBM in City is still in the process of hiring over 125 high paying jobs and most are being filled by immigrants - many from Ukraine.
There is a reason home sales are up 55% vs a year ago January. A few years ago everybody knew someone that moved out west - now there is a definite reverse. I know so many people moving back to SJ and a real estate agent I deal with sold homes in the last couple months to folks from NL, PQ, England, China, BC and NS.

[Southpaw78]

I don't think we should dismiss that despite the overall decline in population, the population in the uptown core actually went up 15%. A stronger core is the foundation of a stronger city. It will be interesting to see in the coming years if there will be expanded development to the surrounding neighbourhoods if the core reaches a saturation point for residential properties and services.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

I am saying that despite nominal growth in 06-11, Saint John is severely declining. It has been hit hard with the largest loss per capita in manufacturing from the 80s to 2000s in Canada, poverty is not getting better-- and it seems Irving's grip on the city has been steadily growing.

Do you have any numbers to back up any of these statements?

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

Halifax, Fton, Mton all have strong public sector stability. It is typical in any growing/stable city. We don't have that. Saint John is incredibly precarious, which is why we saw a decline after slight growth (that slight growth of 06-11 was the first increase in decades). I mean, how can we deny that it is out of our control now? We absolutely do need federal aid-- and there's no shame in that.

I'd say SJ is less precarious than people seem to think. There's a lot of industry in the city that completely flies under the radar. Industries like health sciences and research at UNBSJ/Regional Hospital are examples.

Asking for federal aid is admitting defeat. It's admitting that you messed up and you alone cannot think of any way out of it. SJ's situation isn't that bad, and from a financial standpoint Saint John's debt service cost as a % of total expenditures is lower now than it was 15 years ago (floats around 10%) - it's lower than Moncton, Dieppe, Bathurst, Campbellton, Edmundston...

What does it say to local business when the city admits defeat like that? What does it say to local residents that it's admitted defeat? It would put an end to any momentum in any category you can think of and would evaporate any belief or confidence in the local business market.

Just to get some numbers out there:

• Since 2000 SJ's residential tax assessment has doubled (to over $4B).
• Since 2000 SJ's non-residential tax assessment has increased from $1B to $1.7B.
• Since 2000 SJ's total assessment base has nearly doubled from $3B to $5.9B.
• Since 2000 SJ's total municipal tax base has nearly doubled from $3.5B to $6.7B.

Does this match the growth seen in Fredericton/Moncton? No, but growth is growth.

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

You can interpret that however you wish, but the fact remains we can't wait for the market to turn around. Walk any street outside a block or two of new gentrification uptown and you can see it. We can't be a city that lives and dies on the private sector.

Which is my point entirely. Saint John's history has been devoted to relying on one or two private sector markets (generally manufacturing exports and oil/gas). My suggestion is to further diversify the local economy so that it's split more evenly between manufacturing, oil/gas, IT, services, and a growing tourism base. I don't see any issue with depending on private sector...all you need in the opposite scenario is a fiscally conservative government more than happy to cut public sector jobs and benefits to eradicate any sort of growth seen dependent on the public sector.

There are a lot of people in the city who think that the solution to Saint John's declining manufacturing is to look for and cram more manufacturing into the market. This way of thinking is likely poor as there is never going to be that serious return of manufacturing there once was. Automation has destroyed traditional manufacturing. There's been a lot of upcoming, start-up, locally based industries growing in the city that many people seem completely unaware of. We need to be open-minded about this but i'm afraid many in the city are not open-minded to new industries or ideas and would prefer to try the same mistakes over and over again. It's not the 1940s anymore.

Originally Posted by saintjohnirish☘

Monopoly and poverty are the problems. The former exacerbates the latter. Saint Johners have to start thinking systematically.

Would you care to provide a solution?

Originally Posted by cdnguys

We need to forget about big projects that never materialize and grow organically. IT sector is underreported - IBM in City is still in the process of hiring over 125 high paying jobs and most are being filled by immigrants - many from Ukraine.

Absolutely.