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  #5921  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2017, 1:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Our plans call for no improvement in frequency and a slight time saving that will be entirely lost for the majority who will now have an extra transfer.
Actually, in the off-peak, the Confederation Line schedule is more frequent than the old Transitways its replacing. East of Hurdman, significantly so. West of Hurdman, by a little bit.
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  #5922  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2017, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
As someone with the nickname "LRT's Friend", yyou are not very friendly to anything dealing with the LRT.
I believe the person was a friend of the former Charelli LRT plan.
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  #5923  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2017, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Also, some of that data isn't data: 2021 and 2031 haven't happened yet.
That is why I put the word "projected" in brackets.

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Mature, already-built-out cookiecutterland is generally shrinking in population. This is a widespread trend in Canada and the U.S.
Pure population counts are a bit misleading and it has less to do with the cookie-cutter design and more to do with the age cycle. As I said:

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I suspect the population is declining because of an aging population. The kids have left home and the parents are now alone. Eventually they will move out and new families will move in.
Most (though admittedly not all) homes are purchased by young couples/families. This is true for both new and established neighbourhoods. Traditionally (though this is changing to some extent), a new neighbourhood follows the following cycle:
  1. Those "young families" have children and the population continues to grow without any new construction,
  2. They stop having children, making the the population stable,
  3. Once the children are old enough, they move out, causing a population decline, without any vacancies,
  4. The couple continues to live in the house, for a while longer, until they either die or decide to downsize,
  5. At which time a new young couple/family buys the house and the cycle starts all over again.

The second cycle is staggered a bit, as the first generation moves out at different times, so the trend isn't quite so pronounced but still noticeable. By the time you reach the third cycle, it is so staggered that you can barely notice the trend. The neighbourhoods in decline are likely in the first or second cycle of children moving out of home.
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  #5924  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2017, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I believe the person was a friend of the former Charelli LRT plan.
That is when I joined and that is why I chose that name.

However, I realize that the Chiarelli plan was inadequate in dealing with the downtown issue.

I have said repeatedly that we need the downtown tunnel and I am glad it is being built.

I would have done things differently but now that we have started, we have got to move forward the way we are. There is no turning back.

Politicians of the day (2007-2010) were put into an impossible position and only one way out.

It was a bit of a sham how they subsequently revised the North-South plan. It will never provide good service.
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  #5925  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2017, 6:47 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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There was a proposal from the city to trunk the downtown part of Charelli's original plan. Siemens was ok with that proposal from LeBreton to Riverside but the province refused to commit the funding. It was "all-or-nothing" and the city actually chose nothing. I don't blame the city and blame the province for that strategy. I still see has a major missed opportunity to not have build the original line (minus dowtown).
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  #5926  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2017, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
There was a proposal from the city to trunk the downtown part of Charelli's original plan. Siemens was ok with that proposal from LeBreton to Riverside but the province refused to commit the funding. It was "all-or-nothing" and the city actually chose nothing. I don't blame the city and blame the province for that strategy. I still see has a major missed opportunity to not have build the original line (minus dowtown).
I believe it was the federal government that refused to truncate the line at Bayview pending a proper downtown re-evaluation.

Regardless, what the city has done to the North-south plan is unacceptable now that there is now at least 100,000 residence south of the Greenbelt as well as the RCMP National Headquarters and they also want to serve the airport.
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  #5927  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2017, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I believe it was the federal government that refused to truncate the line at Bayview pending a proper downtown re-evaluation.

Regardless, what the city has done to the North-south plan is unacceptable now that there is now at least 100,000 residence south of the Greenbelt as well as the RCMP National Headquarters and they also want to serve the airport.
Too bad most online news links are down. From what I remember, the Feds waited for the 2006 elections for a new plan to be proposed before commiting to Charelli's plan, O'Brien proposed to build a subway for the downtown part and truncate the line, council voted for that, McGuinty opposed saying that a new EA would be needed. The money wasn't secured then council voted the project down, spending more than 100M$ for nothing.
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  #5928  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 2:38 PM
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I always hoped someone would write a book about this. It was such a bizarre project to get that far along before getting shut down by the electorate.
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  #5929  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I always hoped someone would write a book about this. It was such a bizarre project to get that far along before getting shut down by the electorate.
The only questionable part of the project was the downtown portion. Overall, it was a great bargain (30 km of light rail for $900M) and our replacement plans for the south end of the city are a more questionable investment.

Really, the new plan for the south end is cobbled together disjointed garbage. A collection of shuttle trains and buses that don't serve anybody effectively. The plan for Barrhaven is even worse, since there is really no plan for decades. To illustrate how bad this plan is, the Trillium Line is only a few minutes from my house yet my local bus will be extended to Hurdman because the Trillium Line will not provide adequate service in the future and there are no plans to improve the situation. The current mess requires a shut down of the Trillium Line with every attempt on a modest improvement instead of biting the bullet and doing it right.


Most of the criticism concerning the 2006 plan beyond the downtown portion was bogus political gamesmanship and silly comments from amateur rail fans.

Just remember the massive issue over the contract confidentiality and the standard clause in it that John Baird used to discredit Bob Chiarelli. It was nothing more than political. Who has read the contract on the Confederation Line? The confidentiality issue is standard as was the cancellation or delay clause that John Baird trotted out.

So we build Riverside South around a weed covered abandoned transit corridor. You can already see it emerging. And we have also simply abandoned the rail corridor in Barrhaven to be used by infrequent shuttle buses. It is no wonder that ridership modal share continues to be so poor in the south tier of the city.

As we wait for decades for a proper solution, pressure will grow for massive road investment. It is coming. We will all be very happy when the Airport Parkway is expanded into a full fledge divided expressway feeding even more traffic onto Bronson and likewise when Prince of Wales is expanded funnelling similar amounts of traffic into central Ottawa through the CEF.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Feb 16, 2017 at 5:19 PM.
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  #5930  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The only questionable part of the project was the downtown portion. Overall, it was a great bargain (30 km of light rail for $900M) and our replacement plans for the south end of the city are a more questionable investment.

Really, the new plan for the south end is cobbled together disjointed garbage. A collection of shuttle trains and buses that don't serve anybody effectively. The plan for Barrhaven is even worse, since there is really no plan for decades. To illustrate how bad this plan is, the Trillium Line is only a few minutes from my house yet my local bus will be extended to Hurdman because the Trillium Line will not provide adequate service in the future and there are no plans to improve the situation. The current mess requires a shut down of the Trillium Line with every attempt on a modest improvement instead biting the bullet and doing it right.


Most of the criticism concerning the 2006 plan beyond the downtown portion was bogus political gamesmanship and silly comments from amateur rail fans.

Just remember the massive issue over the contract confidentiality and the standard clause in it that John Baird used to discredit Bob Chiarelli. It was nothing more than political. Who has read the contract on the Confederation Line? The confidentiality issue is standard as was the cancellation or delay clause that John Baird trotted out.

So we build Riverside South around a weed covered abandoned transit corridor. You can already see it emerging. And we have also simply abandoned the rail corridor in Barrhaven to be used by infrequent shuttle buses. It is no wonder that ridership modal share continues to be so poor in the south tier of the city.

As we wait for decades for a proper solution, pressure will grow for massive road investment. It is coming. We will all be very happy when the Airport Parkway is expanded into a full fledge divided expressway feeding even more traffic onto Bronson and likewise when Prince of Wales is expanded funnelling similar amounts of traffic into central Ottawa through the CEF.
I agree the downtown portion (and particularly the decision to add trams to a already-overcrowded bus streets) was probably the straw that broke the camel's back because people perceived (probably correctly) that it would make the transit worse overall.

But overall it was a weird project.

The route was a weird reverse zed shape that was a cobbling together of a bunch of different ideas (and about 30% longer than the transitway route from Barrhaven to the Rideau Centre).

Despite all of the talk of Riverside South being a transit-oriented community, no provisions were made in the design on the community to facilitate that. It was (and remains) indistinguishable from other suburbs of the era (big box retail separated from the tram by a large parking lot, rows of empty grass boulevards and sound barriers along the route, housing mostly detached homes and duplexes, etc).

Much of the route either ran parallel to existing rapid transit services (the central transitway, the southeast transitway, the southwest transitway) without really improving travel times or replaced an existing service with only marginally better frequency (the o-train). The primary beneficiary of the project was Riverside South, which is less than 2% of the city's population (and was even less when this project was under consideration).

More importantly its prioritization was bizarre. The central transitway was bursting at the seams and desperately needed to be addressed. The decision to ignore that problem and focus on something else showed a pretty fundamental problem with the city's ranking of priorities.
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  #5931  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I agree the downtown portion (and particularly the decision to add trams to a already-overcrowded bus streets) was probably the straw that broke the camel's back because people perceived (probably correctly) that it would make the transit worse overall.

But overall it was a weird project.

The route was a weird reverse zed shape that was a cobbling together of a bunch of different ideas (and about 30% longer than the transitway route from Barrhaven to the Rideau Centre).

Despite all of the talk of Riverside South being a transit-oriented community, no provisions were made in the design on the community to facilitate that. It was (and remains) indistinguishable from other suburbs of the era (big box retail separated from the tram by a large parking lot, rows of empty grass boulevards and sound barriers along the route, housing mostly detached homes and duplexes, etc).

Much of the route either ran parallel to existing rapid transit services (the central transitway, the southeast transitway, the southwest transitway) without really improving travel times or replaced an existing service with only marginally better frequency (the o-train). The primary beneficiary of the project was Riverside South, which is less than 2% of the city's population (and was even less when this project was under consideration).

More importantly its prioritization was bizarre. The central transitway was bursting at the seams and desperately needed to be addressed. The decision to ignore that problem and focus on something else showed a pretty fundamental problem with the city's ranking of priorities.
Were you actually around when this was all taking place?

Have you really studied the Riverside South community plan? Most of Riverside South was to be within walking distance of a station. The Riverside South Town Centre was to be tightly integrated with light rail and was to have more of a main street feel instead of big boxes. What we have done guarantees that we will only have big boxes.

Have you really examined how the plan was going to tightly integrate into the Barrhaven community and how it was going to compliment the southwest Transitway in Barrhaven?

Why did it get priority?

1. Because of the success of the pilot O-Train, they wanted to extend service into part of the city that did not have rapid transit service and to move the O-Train beyond its pilot design
2. The area to be served was about to grow rapidly. This is exactly what has happened.
3. The federal and provincial government only offered a relatively small amount of money, not enough to build a downtown tunnel. That extra money did not come until some years later, and even then, they underfunded Phase 1.
4. It was going to be a full demonstration project in order to secure more funding for a more ambitious project. As it stands, we lost $100M for cancellation and we were punished for that cancellation with underfunding of Phase 1, probably another $100M.
5. It was guaranteed to generate significant new transit ridership.
6. Part of the route was to use an existing rail corridor, which would keep costs down.
7. The project would help get a multi-use bridge across the Rideau River built. That project was eventually built after years of delay.
8. The project would have removed 30% of the buses off of Albert and Slater Street, reducing the so called crunch, at least temporarily. Remember this was to open 2009 or 2010, 8 or 9 years before the tunnel will open.
9. It was to be built in place of road expansion. The city is still saying this but will an attractive light rail alternative ever arrive?
10. In order to deal with the limited transportation routes from the south into the city caused by the presence of the airport.

I see your criticism of that plan, but I don't see your criticism of the city's subsequent plan for the south end. I wonder why.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Feb 16, 2017 at 7:46 PM.
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  #5932  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Were you actually around when this was all taking place?

Have you really studied the Riverside South community plan? Most of Riverside South was to be within walking distance of a station. The Riverside South Town Centre was to be tightly integrated with light rail and was to have more of a main street feel instead of big boxes. What we have done guarantees that we will only have big boxes.

Have you really examined how the plan was going to tightly integrate into the Barrhaven community and how it was going to compliment the southwest Transitway in Barrhaven?

Why did it get priority?

1. Because of the success of the pilot O-Train, they wanted to extend service into part of the city that did not have rapid transit service and to move the O-Train beyond its pilot design
2. The area to be served was about to grow rapidly. This is exactly what has happened.
3. The federal and provincial government only offered a relatively small amount of money, not enough to build a downtown tunnel. That extra money did not come until some years later, and even then, they underfunded Phase 1.
4. It was going to be a full demonstration project in order to secure more funding for a more ambitious project. As it stands, we lost $100M for cancellation and we were punished for that cancellation with underfunding of Phase 1, probably another $100M.
5. It was guaranteed to generate significant new transit ridership.
6. Part of the route was to use an existing rail corridor, which would keep costs down.
7. The project would help get a multi-use bridge across the Rideau River built. That project was eventually built after years of delay.
8. The project would have removed 30% of the buses off of Albert and Slater Street, reducing the so called crunch, at least temporarily. Remember this was to open 2009 or 2010, 8 or 9 years before the tunnel will open.

I see your criticism of that plan, but I don't see your criticism of the city's subsequent plan. I wonder why.
I don't know what previous planning had been done, Riverside south was already designed and layed out (basically in its current form) when the LRT was cancelled in late 2006. I remember friends and colleagues buying homes in the neighbourhood in 2004-2005 - they were standard suburban homes. I don't know where this transit-oriented housing and retail was supposed to go.

How could it possibly remove 30% of the buses off of Albert/Slater? They would have had to end a third of the transitway routes at Laurier station/Bayview and made people transfer. That would have been a logistical nightmare in stations that were not designed for that kind of transfer pressure.

How was it "guaranteed" to generate significant new ridership? Most of the route was designed to cannibalize existing services. Even if Riverside South had the highest ridership in the city (say 30%) it would only add about 1500 new riders compared to the existing bus service.

The city's subsequent plan certainly isn't perfect, but it is at least reasonably sensible. It addressed the most pressing transit issue (the overcrowding of the central transitway) and provides service to a number of major drivers of transit ridership.
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  #5933  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I don't know what previous planning had been done, Riverside south was already designed and layed out (basically in its current form) when the LRT was cancelled in late 2006. I remember friends and colleagues buying homes in the neighbourhood in 2004-2005 - they were standard suburban homes. I don't know where this transit-oriented housing and retail was supposed to go.

How could it possibly remove 30% of the buses off of Albert/Slater? They would have had to end a third of the transitway routes at Laurier station/Bayview and made people transfer. That would have been a logistical nightmare in stations that were not designed for that kind of transfer pressure.

How was it "guaranteed" to generate significant new ridership? Most of the route was designed to cannibalize existing services. Even if Riverside South had the highest ridership in the city (say 30%) it would only add about 1500 new riders compared to the existing bus service.

The city's subsequent plan certainly isn't perfect, but it is at least reasonably sensible. It addressed the most pressing transit issue (the overcrowding of the central transitway) and provides service to a number of major drivers of transit ridership.
This can be said about every single transit project, but most times it is not true. This kind of statement is used to not build rapid transit. That was said about the original O-Train but they found a new market. Any new transit route that addresses a need that is poorly addressed by existing routes will generate new ridership. This is entirely different route from the southwest Transitway and the southeast transitway does not reach beyond the Greenbelt. This is also why I am also not convinced that the Confederation Line will generate a whole lot of new ridership. It is almost an exact copy of what we had before, granted addressing the downtown issue which had to be addressed. Nevertheless, the Confederation Line does not address needs in the south tier of the city.

The 30% figure is achieved by truncating routes. This is exactly what OC Transpo has done on many routes. Also by eliminating all the express buses to the southeast and south parts of the city including Barrhaven.

Regarding Riverside South, the plan includes a town centre including more dense housing. This has not been built yet. There is no incentive build it without transit. Our current plan for the Trillium Line can't run trains to the planned town centre because the operating license with the current type of trains will not permit level crossings. In order for the town centre plan to work as designed, the trains need to operate without 100% grade separation. This is the foolishness of it all. We design basically a whole city with certain type of transit in mind and then buy another type of transit that is incompatible with that plan. Doesn't this sound like incompetence?

Yes, the Confederation Line addresses a great need, but there is also a need in the south tier of the city that is not being addressed.
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  #5934  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 9:24 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Have you really studied the Riverside South community plan? Most of Riverside South was to be within walking distance of a station. The Riverside South Town Centre was to be tightly integrated with light rail and was to have more of a main street feel instead of big boxes. What we have done guarantees that we will only have big boxes.
This is Ottawa. Even with LRT, that area of town would still have only generated big boxes, because that's all Ottawa developers now know how to do, and all the city will ever rubber-stamp.

All the LRT in the world won't make the suburbs more urban and less crappy, as long as proponents don't propose anything more urban, and as long as the city rubber-stamps their crap anyway, as they do.
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  #5935  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 9:26 PM
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Here is the Riverside South community plan. The area in mauve is the Town Centre. It has not been built yet. The area in white is the old part of Riverside South built to more traditional suburban standards before the rapid transit plan was established. However, with no transit in sight, how can we expect anything but low density housing and big box stores? The current rapid transit plan offers no stations within the bounds of the community as shown. The final Trillium Line station near Bowesville Road will be to the east of this map.



http://media.zuza.com/d/0/d08d2313-7bd2-4318-addb-48364f9b2f1f/Rss___Gallery.jpg
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  #5936  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 9:41 PM
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Does anyone have a map of the old LRT plan?
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  #5937  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2017, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post

The 30% figure is achieved by truncating routes. This is exactly what OC Transpo has done on many routes. Also by eliminating all the express buses to the southeast and south parts of the city including Barrhaven.
Truncate routes where? The confederation line is truncating routes at large stations with lots of room for platforms and a place for buses to turn around (Blair, Hurdman, Tunney's, etc). There is no room to truncate routes at Laurier, where the "platform" is just a narrow sidewalk. Also, the confederation line (because it is grade-separated) offers hope that a shorter overall trip. The tram was going to run on downtown streets and be held up by traffic lights, buses, etc.

That would have been politically impossible to get rid of the express buses in Barrhaven. The proposed line would have been much slower than existing buses (which have fewer stops, take a more direct route downtown and are grade-separated for more of their route). Once the novelty of riding a tram a few times wore off, people would lose interest in the longer trip.
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  #5938  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 12:55 AM
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Truncate routes where? The confederation line is truncating routes at large stations with lots of room for platforms and a place for buses to turn around (Blair, Hurdman, Tunney's, etc). There is no room to truncate routes at Laurier, where the "platform" is just a narrow sidewalk. Also, the confederation line (because it is grade-separated) offers hope that a shorter overall trip. The tram was going to run on downtown streets and be held up by traffic lights, buses, etc.

That would have been politically impossible to get rid of the express buses in Barrhaven. The proposed line would have been much slower than existing buses (which have fewer stops, take a more direct route downtown and are grade-separated for more of their route). Once the novelty of riding a tram a few times wore off, people would lose interest in the longer trip.
The city has been truncating bus routes for years at the same places that will one day be Confederation Line Stations.

As far as the Barrhaven time issues was concerned, there was a bit of propaganda going on by the people who were the typical 'opposers' who can be worse than NIMBYs. The time difference depended on where you lived in Barrhaven and where your travel destination was. What I could not believe about those comments is that there was no intention of closing the Woodroffe connection. Barrhaven residents would have had a choice. Those who lived in the southeast part of Barrhaven close to the N-S route probably would have chosen it. Those living to the north and west, would have probably gone the Woodroffe route. I don't understand why giving people a choice is so horrible especially when they may have really benefited from another route into the city if their destination is not downtown.

The funny thing about all of this is that the bridge was built but not rapid transit. So now Barrhaven residents have more choices to drive, but not useful choices to use transit. It is a lose-lose for transit advocates that just encourages more people to drive. Traffic conditions have really deteriorated in South Gloucester since the opening of that bridge (something I predicted), making transit caught in that same traffic even less competitive than before.

I don't know if you have ever driven in what almost seems rural areas in South Gloucester at rush hour, but traffic conditions can be much worse than in more urban locations closer to the city.

I reflect on that whole debate in 2006. I could not understand the positions that people were taking. Rail advocates opposing a rail plan, the time issue, the construction period, the design of the plan. It was typical naysayers and out and out jealousy. The naysayers won and in the long run, we all lose because it was a lost opportunity that will never come again.

I heard on TV that a transit announcement is to be made tomorrow. I am fully expecting that a westward extension to Kanata is going to be moving forward. Meanwhile, the Trillium Line mess remains, to only get worse soon.

I will be dead before we have anything close to what was approved in 2006. You wonder why I talk endlessly about it, this is why. It is not like it was being delayed 2 years, 5 years or even 10 years. It will more likely be 50 years and I highly doubt the full length will ever be built. I don't have 50 years left.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Feb 17, 2017 at 1:16 AM.
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  #5939  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 4:14 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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I remember David Collenette and his group of "experts" report, which you can find here :

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycou...nsportation%20Final%20Report-english.pdf

It was quite ambitious but relied on existing, single tracking. Just to think how a fiasco that would have been when the O-Train has trouble keeping 15 minutes frequencies. This is basically the MOOSE plan, but was proposed at the time as the main rapid transit network.
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  #5940  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2017, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
I remember David Collenette and his group of "experts" report, which you can find here :

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycou...nsportation%20Final%20Report-english.pdf

It was quite ambitious but relied on existing, single tracking. Just to think how a fiasco that would have been when the O-Train has trouble keeping 15 minutes frequencies. This is basically the MOOSE plan, but was proposed at the time as the main rapid transit network.
The plan isn't bad, but I till don't see how someone who wants LRT to the Glebe would be a fan of this. It doesn't go any closer.

Funny thing, if you convert the Transitways, you will get something like this plan.
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