PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Let's join New Jersey! We won't have to worry about the constitutional amendment to allow higher property tax on commercial properties, they will cut wage and corporate taxes, and bribe companies to locate here.

I'm all for it. Let's make it happen

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Gonzo the Great

Ok , maybe this is a different animal but , if the city is looking for more tax dollars and the state looks at Philly as a cash cow , what ever
happened to the Tasty Cake company , Domino Sugar plant , Budd Rail car plant , that German ship building corp. at the Navy base ,
Curtis Publishing and numerous other business' that I assume payed wage taxes , corporate taxes , state taxes and who knows what
other forms of income that both the city and state benefited from ..... but no longer reap the benefits of ..... Need more " good " paying
jobs ..... no jobs , no backbone ..... Think Philly is going to get better just with medical , educational and financial opportunities .

Manufacturing jobs? Is that what you are talking about? I wouldn't necessarily say these are "good" paying jobs. Manufacturing did not just leave Philadelphia, it declined across the United States.

The reason for the decline is because of robotics and technological advancements which made human labor obsolete. It was also because of the natural progression of the US economy from a labor/manufacturing economy, to a knowledge based economy. The general expectation for wage payments and benefit packages increased in the United States, which made it too expensive for companies to employ US labor in factories and manufacturing plants, which forced them to move to other countries where they could pay employees low labor costs/wages for their work. Without doing so, many, many more of these companies likely would have folded and went bankrupt. It has very little to do with taxation and government policies. If you want those manufacturing jobs back, you're going to have to convince everybody working in these fields to accept lower wages and lower to no benefit packages. By the way, while manufacturing jobs may have paid "well" in 1950, the pay would not be "good" by today's standards.

On top of that, Philadelphia could 100% survive and thrive on medical, educational and financial job opportunities. Take a look at Boston as a prime example of how a city can thrive after the decline of manufacturing and build a strong, high-paying workforce base around these types of sectors. Philadelphia should be working to build around it's educational and medical institutions, and continue to attract financial, tech, research and pharmaceutical companies into the city. These are the companies and jobs of today. These are the types of industries that are adding high wage and "good" paying jobs today.

By the way, Tastykake still exists and is located in Philadelphia. The "Navy Yard" has more jobs located there today than when the Navy Base existed.

If you haven't been paying attention to actual statistics, the city of Philadelphia has been adding jobs - 13,000+ last year actually. The city now has 711,000 jobs and is continuing to grow. If we want to continue this upward trajectory, we have to continue to look towards the future of these high wage industries, we cannot look to the past. Stop living in 1950.

[PhillySteaks]

Originally Posted by summersm343

If you haven't been paying attention to actual statistics, the city of Philadelphia has been adding jobs - 13,000+ last year actually. The city now has 711,000 jobs and is continuing to grow. If we want to continue this upward trajectory, we have to continue to look towards the future of these high wage industries, we cannot look to the past. Stop living in 1950.

Yet we are below 1970s job levels right? In nearly 50 years we've lost jobs - that's like...incredible, even with the growth over the past few years.

Philly will be an education and medical center - finance will remain mediocre because of the high taxes and proximity of NYC's capability to take top talent, as well as a massively deeper investor pool to raise money from. It's an international city, plain and simple. DE is also a huge suck on finance from the city due to corporate tax laws. It's why JP Morgan alone has 10-15k back office jobs just over the border in Wilmington & Newark. Those jobs pay $60k entry up to a couple $100k for senior positions. Trends I've personally witnessed were entry level kids living in the city, hitting their 30s with a higher paycheck, then moving closer to their job and exiting the city for good because they just can't take the commute anymore.

This whole thing city vs. burbs is pointless. Who cares what people think in the deep parts of the state - the ones that are eating your lunch are the mega-wealthy educated people living just over the border so they don't get a 4% pay deduction. The city budget is a black hole unfortunately with many more regressive taxes just over the horizon. If you think that the majority of people who are wealthy and highly educated won't flee that then you're in denial - it's literally been happening for decades. You can see an EXTREME drop off in population in the 30-50 age range, which are PRIME earnings years. Personally speaking I don't blame them in the slightest, how could you? It's how the free market works. If people don't like something - they'll leave. It's so easy to get in and out of the city. I love philly - but if you look at the situation in a vacuum from a purely financial viewpoint it's a no brainer to flee for the immediate surrounding burbs. Very easy to grab a room for the night and $35 uber ride when you want a night out. Everyone values things differently.
If you are single and go out regularly, yea it's probably not beneficial to move to the burbs. If you are shacked up with a husband/wife and a couple kids and don't want to pay exhobitant private school tuition along with high taxes and find yourself only going out 1 night every few weeks then yea it's way more beneficial to be in the burbs and locate near a train station for easy access.

What absolutely worries me the most about Philly is the millennials. The largest generation in US history is approaching their 30s, which just so happens to be the age people statistically leave cities. On top of that the majority of the philly inflow of millennials over the past few years grew up in the philly burbs. These are kids who grew up with backyards, bike trails, hide and go seek, etc. - not traditional city folks, so they're already biased. If and when that generation moves into their 30s, and the bulk of that group should be 5-7 years from now, are they going to want the same things for their kids? Sure they'll buy their first home here, but their second? I don't know the answer to that, but it scares the begeesus out of me. Furthermore if they do move out, the type of job growth the city needs to sustain that loss is no where near optimal output. The city can effectively offset that migration if they grow jobs here and bring in immigrants and people from all over the country to fill those positions - right now that's not happening at the velocity that needs to occur to offset the potential risk of a 30yr old's potential exodus.

The problem I've personally witnessed is when you lay out very real viewpoints and concerns so many people in the city, government, and even on this board for that matter, attack you as you don't know what you're talking about - then they can't figure out why philly never reaches it's actual potential. It's really sad and frustrating to see. People raise legitimate concerns and they are marginalized as "anti-Philadelphia". It's a shame.

[1487]

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

Yet we are below 1970s job levels right? In nearly 50 years we've lost jobs - that's like...incredible, even with the growth over the past few years.

Philly will be an education and medical center - finance will remain mediocre because of the high taxes and proximity of NYC's capability to take top talent, as well as a massively deeper investor pool to raise money from. It's an international city, plain and simple.

This whole thing city vs. burbs is pointless. Who cares what people think in the deep parts of the state - the ones that are eating your lunch are the mega-wealthy educated people living just over the border so they don't get a 4% pay deduction. The city budget is a black hole unfortunately with many more regressive taxes just over the horizon. If you think that the majority of people who are wealthy and highly educated won't flee that then you're in denial - it's literally been happening for decades. You can see an EXTREME drop off in population in the 30-50 range, which are PRIME earnings years. Personally speaking I don't blame them in the slightest, how could you? It's how the free market works. If people don't like something - they'll leave. It's so easy to get in and out of the city. I love philly - but if you look at the situation in a vacuum from a purely financial viewpoint it's a no brainer to flee for the immediate surrounding burbs. Very easy to grab a room for the night and $35 uber ride when you want a night out.

1. I doubt wealthy people are looking to leave because of the regressive soda tax.
2. Recent article documented the major increase in 6 figure households in Philly over past 5-10 years
3. Many real estate people have said there is not ENOUGH desirable high end condo supply on the market
4. Philly added more residents in 2010-2015 time frame than any of the surrounding counties
5. Many "regular" Philadelphians actually view the tax abatement as a giveaway to well off buyers who likely can afford to pay full property taxes. Well off buyers have certainly gained the most.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

Yet we are below 1970s job levels right? In nearly 50 years we've lost jobs - that's like...incredible, even with the growth over the past few years.

Philly will be an education and medical center - finance will remain mediocre because of the high taxes and proximity of NYC's capability to take top talent, as well as a massively deeper investor pool to raise money from. It's an international city, plain and simple. DE is also a huge suck on finance from the city due to corporate tax laws. It's why JP Morgan alone has 10-15k jobs just over the border in Wilmington & Newark.

This whole thing city vs. burbs is pointless. Who cares what people think in the deep parts of the state - the ones that are eating your lunch are the mega-wealthy educated people living just over the border so they don't get a 4% pay deduction. The city budget is a black hole unfortunately with many more regressive taxes just over the horizon. If you think that the majority of people who are wealthy and highly educated won't flee that then you're in denial - it's literally been happening for decades. You can see an EXTREME drop off in population in the 30-50 range, which are PRIME earnings years. Personally speaking I don't blame them in the slightest, how could you? It's how the free market works. If people don't like something - they'll leave. It's so easy to get in and out of the city. I love philly - but if you look at the situation in a vacuum from a purely financial viewpoint it's a no brainer to flee for the immediate surrounding burbs. Very easy to grab a room for the night and $35 uber ride when you want a night out.

The people in the deep part of the state are the ones getting elected to positions in Harrisburg, and consistently trying to rail Philadelphia. We need to change their mindsets to have a more positive view towards Philadelphia so we are not fending off funding cut and tax increase bill proposals every damn year.

We are still below 1970s levels for total jobs, but Philadelphia is growing. We just started this renaissance in the early to mid-2000s. Things aren't going to change overnight. We need to continue on this positive trajectory.

I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about - in fact you're making my point. The city has increased in total # of households making 6-figures and the overall median household income in the city is up to $41,000 from $38,000 in 2013. The city is gradually getting wealthier and growing in population and jobs. The total # of jobs is up in the city to 711,000, from 595,000 in 2012.

The city needs to continue to add jobs in these high wage fields. The city needs to continue to lower wage taxes and business taxes to grow the job and population base. A higher job and population base leads to more tax dollars which leads to better schools, improved infrastructure, etc. Then maybe we can talk about keeping millennials here when they come to having kids.

I'll tell you what though, I'm a millennial and we plan to raise any kids we do have in the city. I believe most millennials have a different viewpoint and way of thinking than their grandparents who fled for the burbs, and their parents who grew up with sheltered suburban lives.

Millennials leaving is a hypothetical situation however. It may not necessarily be the case. If so, then Philadelphia needs to attract the next generation behind millennials with high wage jobs. Millennials are helping to grow the population base, but the largest contribution to population growth in the past decade has come from immigrants.

Manufacturing is not the answer for an improved Philadelphia of the future. Medical, educational, tech, pharmaceutical, finance, etc. are the answers to the future.

[1487]

^time for you to run for office.

[jjv007]

Harrisburg definitely has it's own issues and has often in the past failed to realize the vital role Philadelphia plays in the state. This new bill to remove funding though is in my opinion Philadelphia's own fault, however. You could make the case that Harrisburg is trying to make a political statement here but Philly's sanctuary city policy is pretty much that as well in many ways. You can't blame Harrisburg here for Philly's stubbornness.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Anyone got any building pictures? I'm sure this has all been very informative, but five pages of text in two days seems sufficient.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by jjv007

Harrisburg definitely has it's own issues and has often in the past failed to realize the vital role Philadelphia plays in the state. This new bill to remove funding though is in my opinion Philadelphia's own fault, however. You could make the case that Harrisburg is trying to make a political statement here but Philly's sanctuary city policy is pretty much that as well in many ways. You can't blame Harrisburg here for Philly's stubbornness.

How do you figure Philadelphia's Sanctuary status is a political statement????!!!!

As has already been discussed this is the furthest thing from a political statement, but a real policy that does good and is based in sound facts and logic!

This article brought up JayFar earlier: http://www.citylab.com/crime/2017/01/sanctuary-cities-are-safer-and-more-productive/514508/

So sanctuary cities are safer and helps police do their job. The Major Cities Chiefs Association, an association of police chiefs from large cities across the country agree and have come out against an effort to remove sanctuary city status while trying to explain their benefit. As has the conference of US Mayors.

Now granted the national FOP, supports the end of sanctuary cities but most of its members do not police in big cities where this is even and issue. In actual sanctuary cities the rank and file police have far different opinions. It's only anecdotal, but no one I know who is a Philadelphia Police officer wants to end the sanctuary city program. And this includes individuals with right wing political attitudes. Many of them support the idea increasing immigration enforcement, but it's not their job! Getting involved in deporting immigrants is not only not their job, but pushing those responsibilities onto them makes their job more dangerous and difficult to perform in the neighborhoods they have to work.

It's just common sense, who wants more work that makes them less effective at their job?

The police already cooperate with ICE in sanctuary cities and hold all violent criminals!

In case some forgot, despite Philadelphia's renaissance, the city still has an issue with crime especially in poorer neighborhoods and as the major american city with the highest poverty rate, that's a big problem. Are you really suggesting we make our city more dangerous? So some hick in middle Pennsylvania can sleep better at night?

I simply can't comprehend your perspective. Philadelphia has an obvious reason for being a sanctuary city that is for it's own benefit. Meanwhile Harrisburg's concern with us being a sanctuary city has to do with what exactly? How is it their concern? Exactly. It's purely a political message that is forcing the major economic engine of the entire state to decide between either negatively impacting the safety of its citizens or economic disaster.

It's inexcusable.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Anyone got any building pictures? I'm sure this has all been very informative, but five pages of text in two days seems sufficient.

I'm hoping for 6 pages, and a new record!

[City Wide]

[QUOTE.
I simply can't comprehend your perspective. Philadelphia has an obvious reason for being a sanctuary city that is for it's own benefit. Meanwhile Harrisburg's concern with us being a sanctuary city has to do with what exactly? How is it their concern? Exactly. It's purely a political message that is forcing the major economic engine of the entire state to decide between either negatively impacting the safety of its citizens or economic disaster.

It's inexcusable.[/QUOTE]

If Lord Orange hadn't brought up the issue of sanctuary cities the crowns in Harrisburg wouldn't have said a word. I doubt that most of them had ever heard of the concept 6 months ago.

But at the same time I would be ok with not being a listed sanctuary city; drop the name but in reality not changing anything as it takes place on street level (and cross my fingers hoping we don't get another Rizzo in office). I think there's bigger and more important fights yet to come.

[Gonzo the Great]

[QUOTE=summersm343;7705609]Manufacturing jobs? Is that what you are talking about? I wouldn't necessarily say these are "good" paying jobs. Manufacturing did not just leave Philadelphia, it declined across the United States.

The reason for the decline is because of robotics and technological advancements which made human labor obsolete. It was also because of the natural progression of the US economy from a labor/manufacturing economy, to a knowledge based economy. The general expectation for wage payments and benefit packages increased in the United States, which made it too expensive for companies to employ US labor in factories and manufacturing plants, which forced them to move to other countries where they could pay employees low labor costs/wages for their work. Without doing so, many, many more of these companies likely would have folded and went bankrupt. It has very little to do with taxation and government policies. If you want those manufacturing jobs back, you're going to have to convince everybody working in these fields to accept lower wages and lower to no benefit packages. By the way, while manufacturing jobs may have paid "well" in 1950, the pay would not be "good" by today's standards.

On top of that, Philadelphia could 100% survive and thrive on medical, educational and financial job opportunities. Take a look at Boston as a prime example of how a city can thrive after the decline of manufacturing and build a strong, high-paying workforce base around these types of sectors. Philadelphia should be working to build around it's educational and medical institutions, and continue to attract financial, tech, research and pharmaceutical companies into the city. These are the companies and jobs of today.




Whoa there big fella , did I strike a nerve . To quote a quote , a well built home can not stand without a strong foundation . There are lots of
" good " paying manufacturing jobs out here . Not to be picky but human labor is far from obsolete ..... Just ask the crane operators over at
CTC or the electricians laying cable . As far as '50's wages not being good by todays standards , shit , half the products made today are not
as good either . We live in a throw away society where quantity not quality is the norm of the day ..... Now I could go on but I'll just cut to
one last thought I have . There is no medical , financial or educational ( I guess you are referring to professorship positions ) without substantial
contributions from the manufacturing industry . Where do you think all the hardware , i.e. tools , that are used in the medical , educational or
financial worlds come from .
I am not advocating a departure from what may be todays " future " high end , retirement positions . But to think manufacturing is a lost art is
just crazy ...... Oh , by the way , when you are ready to purchase your next home , you better hope to Christ , product manufacturing and labor
are not obsolete .

[Londonee]

Everyone constantly makes the, "when people are in their 30s and have kids they leave the city (- therefore the city has tons of problems)" argument.

Is there a single city IN THE US, where the first part of that statement isn't true?

City's are expensive. House prices are expensive if you want a family. Most of my friends who left, left because they couldn't afford 4beds, 2.5 baths in a location that made sense - and trust me, there are plenty of locations that make sense - they are just pricy.

[acenturi]

Originally Posted by Gonzo the Great

.............that German ship building corp. at the Navy base

What are you talking about. AKER (which. BTW, is Norwegian, not German) is still building ships at the Navy Yard. All they did was change their name: "Changing our name to Philly Shipyard more accurately reflects the shipyard we have become in recent years," shipyard president and CEO Steinar Nerbovik said. "The new name also represents the proud tradition of shipbuilding in Philly." AND “It’s a fantastic, state of the art facility,” says the shipyard’s CEO, Steinar Nerbovik, who now has 700 employees at the Yard and has at least eight ships on its order list. “Philadelphia is definitely the place to be building ships in the U.S.” AND as summersm343 indicated, Tastycake is live and well and paying taxes at the Shipyard. Get your facts straight. Why did I contribute to this seemingly never ending set of NON-Skyscraper posts. This place has turned into a Forum of off-topic drum beaters - again.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by 1487

Sunday article on Vanguard in business section indicated they are currently shopping for CC office space to be more competitive for younger talent.

And they found some nice, cheap lowrise class B space.

Vanguard chooses 2300 Chestnut St. offices for Center City R&D facility | Philly.com

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18447190/2300-Chestnut-St-Philadelphia-PA/

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by summersm343

It may in fact, be illegal for the state to force a municipality to cooperate with federal law and immigration enforcement. This should be the responsibility of the federal government to ensure it is being enforced, not the state.

If the state and the federal government want stricter illegal immigration enforcement, they need to station more ICE agents in cities, to be able to attain any arrested illegal immigrants. They should not force the local police department of said municipality to now act as ICE agents and clog up holding cells.

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Apples and oranges. The Federal government's relationship with the locals is another matter. We're off topic enough already.

Interesting choice. Not exactly a status address or a trophy building. There's not a whole lot of urban amenities within 1 Block (unless you like Bonners), either.

But very close to 30th Street station and the River Trail. And, based on the building, I'm assuming will have a pretty cool urban loft aesthetic - which may be what they are going for to differentiate themselves and attract talent.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Interesting choice. Not exactly a status address or a trophy building. There's not a whole lot of urban amenities within 1 Block (unless you like Bonners), either.

But very close to 30th Street station and the River Trail. And, based on the building, I'm assuming will have a pretty cool urban loft aesthetic - which may be what they are going for to differentiate themselves and attract talent.

Doesn't need to be. Malvern will still be headquarters. I imagine if it works out well for them. They will invest more at the location when they bring the head count up to 100. Maybe bring in a food service to open a cafe or some other kind of amenities. It's a wait and see outcome.

[Parkway]

I believe Saxby's has their headquarters in that building as well.

[Redddog]

if Vanguard sets up a philly shop there, the amenities will soon follow.

This will be a catalyst for that area.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

And they found some nice, cheap lowrise class B space.

Vanguard chooses 2300 Chestnut St. offices for Center City R&D facility | Philly.com

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18447190/2300-Chestnut-St-Philadelphia-PA/

Very big for Philadelphia! This could very well draw other companies into this area. I am willing to bet this will just be the first of Vanguard's investment in Philadelphia. More jobs will follow from them.

Originally Posted by Londonee

Interesting choice. Not exactly a status address or a trophy building. There's not a whole lot of urban amenities within 1 Block (unless you like Bonners), either.

But very close to 30th Street station and the River Trail. And, based on the building, I'm assuming will have a pretty cool urban loft aesthetic - which may be what they are going for to differentiate themselves and attract talent.

Close to 30th Street Station for sure, and everybody I have talked to is stating this is just a temporary space for Vanguard to get their feet wet. They'll eventually move into some larger, more trophy like space along West Market or Schuylkill Yards. There will eventually be more jobs coming to Philadelphia from Vanguard.

Originally Posted by Parkway

I believe Saxby's has their headquarters in that building as well.

And Jacobs architecture.

Originally Posted by Redddog

if Vanguard sets up a philly shop there, the amenities will soon follow.

This will be a catalyst for that area.

Yes, more will certainly come to the area. A coffee space is opening on the ground floor of 2116 Chestnut. There is still another empty space there that could hold a restaurant. Also, the 2200 block of Walnut has some retail vacancies that are just starting to fill in. 2400 Market will bring some retail options as well.