ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

My apologies, but I could not disagree more. Casinos are destinations which will drive more people to come downtown and spend money, which will ultimately benefit the whole community. It will also provide 3000 working class jobs which Atlanta desperately needs. With this influx of jobs, people and spending, developers will finally see Downtown Atlanta as a viable residential market.

Destinations? Like a sports stadium (or two) that have brought so much development to Turner Field and the land immediately around the GA Dome? I have little faith Arthur Blank will fulfill his promises- particularly once he has an opportunity to sell (if and when he does). Casinos are far worse than stadiums when it comes to claiming economic impacts/developments in their neighborhoods.

Those 3000 working class jobs won't be situated next to the casino- unless the casino is providing housing for their workers; please tell me do you know a lot of people who are jumping at an opportunity to live next door to a casino? Or who would move downtown because we might have a casino now? That's not how the market will work.

You're not going to see a ton of residential developers jump on board in bringing their developments to downtown just because of a casino- the demographics just don't support that.

Casinos are not designed to be a "good neighbor" - they are designed to be fortresses and keep their customers until they've exhausted their money. This isn't Vegas where there's already a substantial base of entertainment options and competitors (other casinos) -the legislation is only allowing one casino in our region.....they might market themselves to gain support from others that they will intend to incentive their customers to patronize the existing business but let's be real that's not the reality here. They're end-goal is to keep you trapped inside.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Destinations? Like a sports stadium (or two) that have brought so much development to Turner Field and the land immediately around the GA Dome? I have little faith Arthur Blank will fulfill his promises- particularly once he has an opportunity to sell (if and when he does). Casinos are far worse than stadiums when it comes to claiming economic impacts/developments in their neighborhoods.

Those 3000 working class jobs won't be situated next to the casino- unless the casino is providing housing for their workers; please tell me do you know a lot of people who are jumping at an opportunity to live next door to a casino? Or who would move downtown because we might have a casino now? That's not how the market will work.

You're not going to see a ton of residential developers jump on board in bringing their developments to downtown just because of a casino- the demographics just don't support that.

Casinos are not designed to be a "good neighbor" - they are designed to be fortresses and keep their customers until they've exhausted their money. This isn't Vegas where there's already a substantial base of entertainment options and competitors (other casinos) -the legislation is only allowing one casino in our region.....they might market themselves to gain support from others that they will intend to incentive their customers to patronize the existing business but let's be real that's not the reality here. They're end-goal is to keep you trapped inside.

The Gulch is a 117 acre f'en asphalt whole. Anything there would be a "good neighbor".

Casinos are far worse than stadiums when it comes to claiming economic impacts/developments in their neighborhoods.

Really???
Casinos are open 24/7/365 and will employee 3000 people. How many people does the GA Dome employee? How many events on a yearly basis?

The bottom line is having a casino Downtown will not disrupt the matrix of urban development. The Gulch is a already and will always be in a fragmented area of Downtown. Not to mention, Downtown is full of parking lots just begging for residential buildings.

[cabasse]

casinos haven't done anything directly for downtown detroit. it's been improving in areas away from them in spite of their presence, not because of. i'd rather see something else built there myself.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

The Gulch is a 117 acre f'en asphalt whole. Anything there would be a "good neighbor".

Really???
Casinos are open 24/7/365 and will employee 3000 people. How many people does the GA Dome employee? How many events on a yearly basis?

The bottom line is having a casino Downtown will not disrupt the matrix of urban development. The Gulch is a already and will always be in a fragmented area of Downtown. Not to mention, Downtown is full of parking lots just begging for residential buildings.

I'm still not convinced given the precedents and research on casinos proves little to no positive impacts in the immediate areas around them.

Will a casino have a positive impact on the greater metro-Atlanta area? Sure.

Will a casino have a positive impact in the immediate area? Not so much.

The revenues will be going to the state- not the local jurisdiction. Yes- the revenues will mostly be for Hope and other scholarships, but that puts the burden on City of Atlanta to pony up for the infrastructure improvements without the revenues that the state otherwise receives. This also takes the future land area that could have been used to increase sales tax revenue away from the City of Atlanta and further reduces the opportunity to have private development directly impact the surrounding areas.

Yes it will create jobs but most of them will be lower-paid, entry level jobs - not a corporate jobs or even a manufacturing job which are more in the living-wage category.

Social costs are oft to difficult to analyze but there are a number of factors to take into consideration.

Casinos have proven to negatively impact the surrounding home values (yes here are homes downtown - condos).

And regarding the matrix of urban development - putting in a giant fortress next to the stadium and GWCC and calling it an improvement over the current conditions skims over the fact that any and all plans (even scaled back visions of the MMPT) aren't worth waiting for in this area.

The future of the Gulch can and should be a major part of the urban connectivity of Atlanta. Every single plan was banking on stitching back the street grid and engaging the streets properly. The last thing we need is another Portman-like buildings turning it's back to the streets- which is exactly what a casino will do.

Also regarding the empty parking lots- we should blame GA State and the state government for creating a pricing inflation. Most property owners are just holding out assuming the state or GA State will make them an offer and it's killed most opportunities for private developers to come in and compete. The make an absurdly high offer on a property and the surrounding property owners assume they can make bank by just waiting it out for them to come along in the future. It's killed much of the downtown growth because private developers cannot make that work.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by cabasse

casinos haven't done anything directly for downtown detroit. it's been improving in areas away from them in spite of their presence, not because of. i'd rather see something else built there myself.

Atlanta is the 4th largest convention city in the US and over 44 Million people travel to Atlanta yearly. These two stats alone should show you why you should not draw parallels between the lack of success the Detroit casino is having and having one in Atlanta.

http://www.cvent.com/en/supplier-network/top-50/2016-top-destinations-us.shtml

[Ant131531]

Why do you want a casino in downtown so badly? I feel like it'll just bring trouble, plus it'll be yet another fortress like structure to the area. All the greatest cities in the country don't have casinos downtown. It feels like it would just be trying to make up for something Atlanta lacks in other attributes like downtown Detroit.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/...-project-to-rise-in-old-fourth-ward.html

While I am glad it looks like development is moving forward with this project, I really wish we'd get over the hump of 5 story developments with 200-300 residents. We have a massive shortage of in-town residences, despite all the units coming online.

[Neighbor]

I still wish this was an office instead of an apartment building. North Avenue should have more of a blend of uses other than residential. Is the proposed retail more than what the previous plan had proposed? Any examples of what 9,000 sqft of retail looks like, as in are there any buildings in the city with similar dimensions?

[Hokiehaven]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Why do you want a casino in downtown so badly? I feel like it'll just bring trouble, plus it'll be yet another fortress like structure to the area. All the greatest cities in the country don't have casinos downtown. It feels like it would just be trying to make up for something Atlanta lacks in other attributes like downtown Detroit.

I'm not for it, don't like the consequences, but if it's happening, airport gets 100 million people a year. It would be isolated from an area such as downtown that will grow organically on it's own and I believe a casino is a destination, so why not put it out of the way, but connected to MARTA at the airport to make it a destination on its own.

All of those things make far more sense.

Downtown will grow without a casino anyway, so why hurt development in that area. My 2 cents.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Neighbor

I still wish this was an office instead of an apartment building. North Avenue should have more of a blend of uses other than residential. Is the proposed retail more than what the previous plan had proposed? Any examples of what 9,000 sqft of retail looks like, as in are there any buildings in the city with similar dimensions?

I agree. Really wish this was more offices. If/when we get the north Ave streetcar, we are going to want a heavy mix of uses. The mass of housing south of North Ave really lacks a mix of uses, despite a handful of mixed use nearby. More places work and visit for entertainment is ideal.

[One ATLien]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Why do you want a casino in downtown so badly? I feel like it'll just bring trouble, plus it'll be yet another fortress like structure to the area. All the greatest cities in the country don't have casinos downtown. It feels like it would just be trying to make up for something Atlanta lacks in other attributes like downtown Detroit.

I'm for any attraction that would potentially and probably draw more tourism to Atlanta. And a casino being built in Atlanta that would cost at least $2 Billion is not a joke, it prob would be a nice or even magnificent structure to have in or near the core of the city. As for greatest cities in the country not having casinos downtown, that because of a history of gambling being banned or heavily regulated. If you look at big cities outside the country for example, almost all the ones I have been to have several casinos in or near the city center, Paris, London and Singapore for example..

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by One ATLien

I'm for any attraction that would potentially and probably draw more tourism to Atlanta. And a casino being built in Atlanta that would cost at least $2 Billion is not a joke, it prob would be a nice or even magnificent structure to have in or near the core of the city. As for greatest cities in the country not having casinos downtown, that because of a history of gambling being banned or heavily regulated. If you look at big cities outside the country for example, almost all the ones I have been to have several casinos in or near the city center, Paris, London and Singapore for example..

The proximity from Hartsfield-Jackson to Downtown Atlanta is closer than you think - particularly when you compare the previous examples in regards to proximity.

[One ATLien]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

The proximity from Hartsfield-Jackson to Downtown Atlanta is closer than you think - particularly when you compare the previous examples in regards to proximity.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you are implying..

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

There is equipment on site for start of the whole foods

[Atlanta3000]

Just so we are all on the same page

The pic below is the most likely area a casino would go if it is in Downtown. Does any seriously believe there is any other appropriate use for this site other than a casino? Considering it is surrounded by government buildings without street level retail, Philips Arena, Falcons Stadium and a 3 Million sqft. convention center. This area is not "neighborhood friendly" ALREADY and never will be.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Just so we are all on the same page

The pic below is the most likely area a casino would go if it is in Downtown. Does any seriously believe there is any other appropriate use for this site other than a casino? Considering it is surrounded by government buildings without street level retail, Philips Arena, Falcons Stadium and a 3 Million sqft. convention center. This area is not "neighborhood friendly" ALREADY and never will be.

How about infill development that reconnects the street grids and addressed street frontages? Regardless of the MMPT project moving forward this would make the city much more connected and "neighborhood friendly" than slapping down a casino into the middle of the previous plans.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

How about infill development that reconnects the street grids and addressed street frontages? Regardless of the MMPT project moving forward this would make the city much more connected and "neighborhood friendly" than slapping down a casino into the middle of the previous plans.

You do realize the MMPT project was to cost $1.2 Billion of taxpayer money just for the transportation terminal. So all the shiny buildings in the last pic are not included in that cost. Given Atlanta doesn't have a money tree, don't you think that investment would be better spent building out the Beltline, street car, more MARTA station or The Stitch?

With that said, a casino would not disrupt the MMPT (pie in the sky project) or connecting the street grid.

[Nanosolar]

A casino downtown would cannibalize other businesses and destroy any hope of rebuilding the areas urban fabric. A big NO from me.

[ATLontheRISE]

Originally Posted by Nanosolar

A casino downtown would cannibalize other businesses and destroy any hope of rebuilding the areas urban fabric. A big NO from me.

This is simply not true. There's no evidence to support a casino cannibilze other businesses. Will there be downstream impacts? Yes. Many of you said that the walmart off Howell Mill would canniblize the area. It's done no such thing! I'm kinda tired of the scare tactics being used. I support a casino downtown Atlanta. Especially in the park-ridden area of downtown. With absolutely 0 chances of being some urban fabric area. It belongs in an area that already has millions and millions of people visiting. Instead of folks stays MOnday - Friday. They might add a couple days on to enjoy the casinos.

Folks, the casinos are coming. Like it or not. Too much money involved to not get the deal done. The best way to have an impact is to focus on bargaining for provisions that ensure public safety and clean streets. I want the area to be done like the MGM DC- Maryland site.

[scania]

Originally Posted by ATLontheRISE

This is simply not true. There's no evidence to support a casino cannibilze other businesses. Will there be downstream impacts? Yes. Many of you said that the walmart off Howell Mill would canniblize the area. It's done no such thing! I'm kinda tired of the scare tactics being used. I support a casino downtown Atlanta. Especially in the park-ridden area of downtown. With absolutely 0 chances of being some urban fabric area. It belongs in an area that already has millions and millions of people visiting. Instead of folks stays MOnday - Friday. They might add a couple days on to enjoy the casinos.

Folks, the casinos are coming. Like it or not. Too much money involved to not get the deal done. The best way to have an impact is to focus on bargaining for provisions that ensure public safety and clean streets. I want the area to be done like the MGM DC- Maryland site.

Totally agree. Some people that consider themselves urbanist, have as much Nimby in them as the ones they talk about.