The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

In fairness to Bombardier, the TRs in Toronto went fairly smoothly afaik, aside from some minor issues.

Bombardier is too important to our industrial future to let fail. We're an extremely aerospace intensive economy and have nurtured it for decades. The current situation with Bombardier is unacceptable but to let it sink during a period of relative weakness would make all the time, energy, and money Canada has invested in it go up in smoke.

Our days making Cheerios and toothpaste are over but having a manufacturing sector is vital to any advanced diversified economy. Aerospace and trains are 2 areas which are high value added and areas where Canada should remain a player.

I understand the frustration with Bombardier but this is a firm we need to help through it's current problems.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

In fairness to Bombardier, the TRs in Toronto went fairly smoothly afaik, aside from some minor issues.

I remember the t1s being a fairly easy transition as well despite no one factoring the varying platform heights into the equation. (or was that for the t35s?) It's more the maintenance costs and the lifespan of parts that ended up much higher than projected.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

For each contract they must go through a bidding process. for the streetcars in Toronto, only 2 companies submitted bids, Bombardier and a small British firm. TRAM Power.. Siemens withdrew from the bid process

Typical SSP. That says nothing as you don't know the needed requirements as part of the bidding process. Turning this into a make work proposition for Northern Ontario is not an attraction for potential bidders. There's a long history of that in Ontario as well as being super cheap.

[niwell]

^Yes, for better or worse there was no way any company other than Bombardier was winning the Toronto streetcar contract based on the way it was designed. Short of Siemens building their own assembly plant in Thunder Bay of course.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The outright hostility that some of you have towards Bombardier is just sad. Bombardier is no better or worse than any other train manufacturer. They're one of the world's leaders at what they do and they sell their products all over the world. But I guess Canadians have to try to tear down one of our own when they get too big for their britches.


No offence but this kind of attitude is why we all but stopped building subways 30 years ago. It's like saying we should have kept using telegrams because they were a proven communication system over the yet to be proven to be competent telephone. So you have to say STOP in between sentences, oh the humanity!

There are many benefits to smartcards and they've been proven all over the world. The TTC likes to pretend it's 1965 but it's slowly being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

LOL Hostility? I don't need your patriotism. I've seen the complaints for their rail product not just from the TTC from the initial T1 order but other European systems that are a lot more public about these things. Bombardier has many divisions/subsidiaries. Stop making it out as a wholly Canadian, one roof fits all corporation.

Hyperbole much? I don't really care what reason the TTC had for delaying smart card implementation. I'm sure it was financial. That said, I'm happy they weren't among the first to jump on the smart card bandwagon a decade ago when the various smart card systems were all not working to spec. I find it hilarious to have been reminded over those 10 years to as recent as yesterday by SSP forumers the horrors of buying tokens and asking for a paper transfer during that time. Now, the presto system is in a position to pick up the pieces and spread across the continent.

[J.OT13]

Breakthrough.

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Ottawa LRT tunnel connected below Rideau Street: Watson

Peter Kovessy, OBJ
Published on January 19, 2017 | Updated at 12:41



Construction of the city’s light-rail line has crossed a major milestone after crews connected both ends of the 2.5-kilometre tunnel beneath downtown Ottawa, Mayor Jim Watson said Thursday morning.

“The tunnel is completely excavated,” Mr. Watson said during a National Capital Commission board meeting.

Rail officials were later quoted as saying complete excavation would be finished by February.

He said there is still a significant amount of work to do, such as fitting up the stations and planning how both OC Transpo and Gatineau’s STO buses will connect to the rail line.

“We don’t want to get rid of our all our buses on streets like Wellington and Queen and Albert and Slater just to have them replaced with even more buses from STO,” Mr. Watson said. “But at the same time, we have to respect that STO customers don’t want to have an extra transfer or two extra transfers.”

He told the NCC board that Ottawa and Gatineau municipal officials are working on a compromise “that will satisfy both sides.”

The first stage of Ottawa’s new light-rail line will run for 12.5 kilometres between Tunney’s Pasture in the west and Blair station in the east when it opens to passengers in 2018.

Testing on the 13-station line started late last year.

A second phase is envisioned to extend the line to Trim Road in Orleans as well as Bayshore and Baseline in the west by 2023.

http://www.obj.ca/Local/City-Hall/2017-0...ttawa-LRT-tunneling-complete%3A-Watson/1

[WhipperSnapper]

• Video Link

[VIce]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Bombardier is too important to our industrial future to let fail. We're an extremely aerospace intensive economy and have nurtured it for decades. The current situation with Bombardier is unacceptable but to let it sink during a period of relative weakness would make all the time, energy, and money Canada has invested in it go up in smoke.

Our days making Cheerios and toothpaste are over but having a manufacturing sector is vital to any advanced diversified economy. Aerospace and trains are 2 areas which are high value added and areas where Canada should remain a player.

I understand the frustration with Bombardier but this is a firm we need to help through it's current problems.

Canadair, de Haviland, Avro, and many others were allowed to fail. Their assets were not, their expertise was not, and their jobs were not, but the company itself was expendable (all of which now in Bombardier, after stints in Boeing and General Dynamics and nationalization). Could you see that?

[The Chemist]

With regards to Bombardier, all of their trains that I've been on (Metro and HSR) have been very good. They use quite a few Bombardier metro trains here in Shanghai (Lines 7 and 9), and the Bombardier HSR trains that they use on the Chinese network, the CRH1 (Bombardier Regina) and CRH380D (Bombardier Zefiro) are both excellent - smooth, quiet, and comfortable.

[caltrane74]

All of January is basically gone and Bombardier has yet to deliver a single streetcar. Word is they are still behind, because they jammed all production efforts on gettng 4430 delivered in December, and are basically starting from scratch with 4431. They have to produce 47 cars this year. So they are basically on a one car per week schedule now. They do it to themselves, wish they had the German work ethic instead of trying to offload crap to Mexico. As the saying goes "garbage in" - "garbage out"

It is becoming quite obvious Bombardier does not have the manufacturing capacity to keep up with the demand for new rail systems in Ontario. Having a partner or a new production facility, close to Toronto - GTA, would help them keep pace not only for the 260 expected streetcars they have to produce, but also the expected demand for LRT vehicles on Eglinton/Kitchener and expected demand for electric locomotives if not handled by the same Japanese companies that built the UPX trainsets.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

LOL Hostility? I don't need your patriotism. I've seen the complaints for their rail product not just from the TTC from the initial T1 order but other European systems that are a lot more public about these things. Bombardier has many divisions/subsidiaries. Stop making it out as a wholly Canadian, one roof fits all corporation.

Every rail company gets complaints about its products. There's nothing unique about Bombardier in this regard. They do the vast majority of their business outside of Canada (see the Chemist's post). Patriotism has nothing to do with that business. Yet only in Canada is the compulsion to tear them down so widespread.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Hyperbole much? I don't really care what reason the TTC had for delaying smart card implementation. I'm sure it was financial. That said, I'm happy they weren't among the first to jump on the smart card bandwagon a decade ago when the various smart card systems were all not working to spec. I find it hilarious to have been reminded over those 10 years to as recent as yesterday by SSP forumers the horrors of buying tokens and asking for a paper transfer during that time. Now, the presto system is in a position to pick up the pieces and spread across the continent.

When you're calling the concept of smartcards a bandwagon and sarcastically talking about the horrors of tokens, criticizing hyperbole is the pot calling the kettle black.

By the way, if the TTC had started using smartcards 10 years ago they wouldn't have been among the first. More like 20 years. And I know that the TTC isn't unique in being late to adopt them, but it's not only smartcards that I'm talking about when I say the TTC is stuck in 1965. It's how the whole organization is set up. Resistance to fare integration is another example. The Commission was set up for an era when most of the Toronto region's population lived in the present city of Toronto boundaries. That's not the reality anymore and the way GTA transit agencies are divided up doesn't reflect the realities of how people need to get around.

[ssiguy]

There is NO excuse for the late arrivals of the Toronto streetcars by Bombardier, none at all. If they were not absolutely sure they could deliver the product on time they shouldn't have made the contract. I don't know of any other major contracts Bombardier has had where the product has been so obscenely late but they don't care because, despite all the money they have received over the decades, they will simply threaten to close Canadian plants if they don't get contracts.

If the contract was not for a Canadian city, it would not be late.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by VIce

Canadair, de Haviland, Avro, and many others were allowed to fail. Their assets were not, their expertise was not, and their jobs were not, but the company itself was expendable (all of which now in Bombardier, after stints in Boeing and General Dynamics and nationalization). Could you see that?

Um..... Canadair and de Haviland did not fail; they were absorbed into Bombardier. Before that Bombardier was primarily a rail and snowmobile manufacturer.

Avro was allowed to fail and a stark reminder of how devastating that can be. Canada never managed to re-enter the global fighter jet business. The bulk of that aerospace talent ended up in California working for Lockheed and other US aerospace firms. One can only speculate at what could have been and the spin off business that could have evolved from that asinine decision.

Hopefully Canada has learned a thing or two from past mistakes.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Every rail company gets complaints about its products. There's nothing unique about Bombardier in this regard. They do the vast majority of their business outside of Canada (see the Chemist's post). Patriotism has nothing to do with that business. Yet only in Canada is the compulsion to tear them down so widespread.


When you're calling the concept of smartcards a bandwagon and sarcastically talking about the horrors of tokens, criticizing hyperbole is the pot calling the kettle black.

By the way, if the TTC had started using smartcards 10 years ago they wouldn't have been among the first. More like 20 years. And I know that the TTC isn't unique in being late to adopt them, but it's not only smartcards that I'm talking about when I say the TTC is stuck in 1965. It's how the whole organization is set up. Resistance to fare integration is another example. The Commission was set up for an era when most of the Toronto region's population lived in the present city of Toronto boundaries. That's not the reality anymore and the way GTA transit agencies are divided up doesn't reflect the realities of how people need to get around.

I don't know how long you have been around SSP. Ever since Montreal adopted smartcard we've had to hear about the horrors of tokens and paper transfer on every visit to Toronto. If you can't stay on topic than what's the point.This is about smartcard technology and not the TTC being stuck in their ways. You'll find very few that would disagree with you there. I don't know when smartcards were first introduced in North America. It doesn't matter. What does matter is that nearly every system has ended up failing with a number of cases so bad systems reverted back to those antiquated payment systems. It's not hyperbole and I believe the TTC/Toronto being stuck in their way was a net benefit.

compulsion to tear them down

Now that's hyperbolic. Why can't we critical? Why can't we view Bombardier from only the TTC's perspective and question why they continue to use them after several orders not living up to expectation? Stop being so petty. It is patriotism for everyone to jump in on Bombardiers defense going so far as saying they are too big for Canadians to allow them to fail. That's Trump 101. Gross.

Note: I brought up Germany a few times as well. I've seen them being critical of Bombardier as well. They just don't function on such an efficient budget as the TTC so they'll trade off higher maintenance for design.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I don't know how long you have been around SSP. Ever since Montreal adopted smartcard we've had to hear about the horrors of tokens and paper transfer on every visit to Toronto. If you can't stay on topic than what's the point.This is about smartcard technology and not the TTC being stuck in their ways. You'll find very few that would disagree with you there.

Why are you trying to limit the conversation to smartcards? This is the Canadian Transit Thread, not the Canadian Smartcard Thread.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I don't know when smartcards were first introduced in North America. It doesn't matter. What does matter is that nearly every system has ended up failing with a number of cases so bad systems reverted back to those antiquated payment systems. It's not hyperbole and I believe the TTC/Toronto being stuck in their way was a net benefit.

Now you're trying to limit the conversation to North America. The world is much bigger than North America. Avoiding looking at other continents with much larger and more advanced transit systems is akin to putting on blinders.

The TTC being stuck in their ways has been a huge drawback for Toronto (and I'm not just talking about smartcards). It's one reason among many that Toronto's metro system is now third longest in the country and ridiculously overcrowded.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

compulsion to tear them down

Now that's hyperbolic. Why can't we critical? Why can't we view Bombardier from only the TTC's perspective and question why they continue to use them after several orders not living up to expectation? Stop being so petty. It is patriotism for everyone to jump in on Bombardiers defense going so far as saying they are too big for Canadians to allow them to fail. That's Trump 101. Gross.

You're trying to limit the conversation to the TTC only now? Bombardier supplies cities all over the world, why on earth would I ignore all of them? That makes no sense.

Everyone isn't jumping in on Bombardier's defence; only a few people are. isaidso said they were too big to fail, so maybe you should read who said what before responding. Caltrane was wishing for their Ontario operations to be sold off, so tearing them down is an accurate description. Trump 101? Really? When you use hyperbole it's fair game to use the same tool to pick apart your posts. You have a curious habit of criticizing people for the exact same thing that you're doing. Speaking of Trump.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Note: I brought up Germany a few times as well. I've seen them being critical of Bombardier as well. They just don't function on such an efficient budget as the TTC so they'll trade off higher maintenance for design.

Don't think for a second that Germans don't also criticize Seimens and Alstom trains. See post 9237 for those companies having the exact same issues as Bombardier. As I said, there's nothing unique about Bombardier's problems and there's no reason to think that other companies would fare any better or worse supplying our transit needs.

[caltrane74]

Well the reason the Toronto subway is only the third longest in the country is because we have to many puritanical bean-counters at City Hall. That's not really, the TTC's fault. There's not much we can do about that now but make our other non-subway rail systems more efficient by getting a European/German or Japanese Partner to assist Bombardier with production of LRT cars, Streetcars, DMU's and Electric Locomotive's for RER and High Speed Rail.

[J.OT13]

Confederation Line update. We now have something resembling a subway station.

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Construction Update
Week of January 16

Foundation construction progresses at Bayview Station as crews continue to install grade beams this week. Along the guideway, the traction power sub station west of Lees, the seventh of the nine required to power the Confederation Line, is being installed at the end of the week. Work on interior finishes also occurs at the bus operators’ buildings at Hurdman and Blair stations.

---

Tunney's Pasture Station

West Stations

Tunney’s Pasture Station: Station construction ramps up and includes work on stairs, footings and walls, as well as drilling of rock anchors.

Bayview Station: This week, underground mechanical and electrical work continues at the station. Crews also install grade beams, backfill and work on the ancillary building’s foundation.

Pimisi Station: Crews continue concrete work, including rebar installation, in anticipation of concrete pours for the platform track slab by end of the month. Other station activities include stripping slabs and working on elevator pits.

---

Ongoing architectural work - Lyon Station cavern

Central Stations

Lyon Station cavern: Crews continue pouring concrete for the concourse walls and architectural work advances in the station. Work includes masonry installation, reinforcing and curbs. In the west transition, rebar and conduits are installed as part of initial work for the track slab and final shotcrete lining installation also occur.

Lyon Station west entrance: Entrance construction is ongoing and includes forming the roof of the adit and pouring walls along the lower level stairs. Crews install the winter enclosure at the station’s east vent shaft and continue wire saw cutting for an anticipated breakthrough to the tunnel.

Lyon Station east entrance: Crews form and pour concrete for the ground floor knee walls* and begin forming the lower escalator slabs. Mechanical rough-ins also occur. At the HVAC shaft, crews continue wire saw cutting for an anticipated breakthrough to the tunnel.

Parliament Station cavern: Work on station decks and columns is ongoing and includes the installation of rebar, followed by concrete pours. Final arch concrete lining pours also begin in sections inside the cavern, and in the running tunnel, crews build starter walls and pour mud slabs.

Parliament Station west entrance: Activities at the integrated entrance will resume in the next weeks with architectural work for the parapets. At the east vent shaft, hand chipping and excavation are ongoing for the next weeks.

---

Concrete pours_walls + arch work - Rideau Station

Rideau Station cavern: The station continues to take shape with arch waterproofing and rebar installation followed by concrete arch final lining pours. Work on bulkheads and concrete pours for the station walls also occur this week.

Rideau Station west entrance: Construction continues 24/7 in this area with excavation and shotcrete work in phases. The removal of the existing shoring, waterproofing and the installation of rebar for the raft slab also take place. Rock excavation is ongoing at the HVAC shaft.

Rideau Station east entrance: Waterproofing, the installation of rebar on exterior walls and concrete work for slabs, stairs and escalator pits are ongoing for the next weeks as part of this phase of entrance construction.

Rideau Street is now open to bus traffic and taxis.

uOttawa Station: Station construction progresses and includes installation of masonry at one end of the station, while crews excavate at the other end of the station to continue the next phase of foundation work. Work also occurs on station walls and slabs.

East Portal: Crews continue waterproofing, installing rebar and formwork, and pouring mud slabs in sections along the ramp during the daytime and overnight. Conduits are installed and ramp reinforcements and insulation work also occur.

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Concrete stair work Hurdman Station

East Stations

Lees Station: This week, crews begin installing duct banks and continue micro-piling, as well as rebar and formwork, as part of station foundation work.

Hurdman Station: Construction includes falsework for the station’s suspended slab, roofing, the installation of the next phase of structural steel, rebar and concrete pours for the station stairs. In addition, crews continue electrical work and waterproofing at the ancillary buildings. Finishing work is ongoing at the bus operators’ building with tile and ceiling work occurring inside and porcelain panel installation taking place outside.

Tremblay Station: Station progress continues with work on the roof, framing of the soffit, flooring, painting, the installation of cable trays in secondary rooms, as well as work on walls and elevators.

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Ongoing panel installation at Blair Station

St-Laurent Station: Crews continue working on the station’s head house, elevators and plenum, in addition to painting and pouring concrete for the mezzanine.

Cyrville Station: The station continues to take shape; this week, crews install porcelain and composite panels as well as frame ceilings and work on the finishes for the auxiliary building.

Blair Station: The installation of composite and porcelain panels and ongoing systems wiring take place at the station. At the bus operators’ building, rough-ins and interior finishes such as tile installation are ongoing.

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Progress of work in the running tunnel - west of Rideau Station

Tunnel Excavation and Support

Tunnel reinforcements and mining are ongoing in the last remaining section of running tunnel west of Rideau Station.

---

Tunnel breakthrough occurs

Tunnel breakthrough

A small punch-through occurred on December 28th, meaning the western portion of the tunnel has now met the eastern portion. There is now a contiguous 2.5-km tunnel. This picture shows the opening as it was completed this week. Complete tunnel excavation is on track for the end of February 2017.

---

Crossover tracks installation - guideway near Tunney's Pasture Station

Guideway

Tunney’s Pasture Station to West Portal: Work on the guideway includes the removal of the parapets along Bayview Bridge and drilling for the crossover tracks in phases.

Mann Avenue Bridge to Blair Station: At the end of the week, crews deliver and install the traction power sub station on the guideway west of Lees Avenue. Teams also continue testing vehicles on tracks between Cyrville and Blair stations and at the Belfast Yard connector.

---

Upcoming Construction Activities

In the coming weeks, the following construction activities are scheduled to occur:

• Pimisi Station structural steel installation.
• Lyon Station west vent shaft work resumes.
• Beginning of trackwork in the west running tunnel.
• Ongoing overnight work at the Rideau Station west and east entrances, and at the East Portal.
• Structural steel installation at uOttawa Station requiring overnight lane restrictions.
• Overnight bracket installation at the Mann Avenue bridge requiring lane restrictions.
• Ongoing Mann Avenue bridge reconstruction work through end of 2017.
• Structural steel installation at Lees Station.
• Fencing installation on guideway just west of Tremblay Station.
• Overhead Catenary System energized in phases for ongoing vehicle testing from Belfast Yard and Blair Station.

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/news/construction-update-107/

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Why are you trying to limit the conversation to smartcards? This is the Canadian Transit Thread, not the Canadian Smartcard Thread.


Now you're trying to limit the conversation to North America. The world is much bigger than North America. Avoiding looking at other continents with much larger and more advanced transit systems is akin to putting on blinders.

The TTC being stuck in their ways has been a huge drawback for Toronto (and I'm not just talking about smartcards). It's one reason among many that Toronto's metro system is now third longest in the country and ridiculously overcrowded.


You're trying to limit the conversation to the TTC only now? Bombardier supplies cities all over the world, why on earth would I ignore all of them? That makes no sense.

Everyone isn't jumping in on Bombardier's defence; only a few people are. isaidso said they were too big to fail, so maybe you should read who said what before responding. Caltrane was wishing for their Ontario operations to be sold off, so tearing them down is an accurate description. Trump 101? Really? When you use hyperbole it's fair game to use the same tool to pick apart your posts. You have a curious habit of criticizing people for the exact same thing that you're doing. Speaking of Trump.


Don't think for a second that Germans don't also criticize Seimens and Alstom trains. See post 9237 for those companies having the exact same issues as Bombardier. As I said, there's nothing unique about Bombardier's problems and there's no reason to think that other companies would fare any better or worse supplying our transit needs.

I'm not limiting anything. I'm trying to steer this conversation back to where it all began. It was about the TTC and their associations with Bombardier and why they haven't tried someone else. This was interpreted as a shot at Bombardier which led to everyone running to the defense of Bombardier that turned this into the usual jumbled mess. I got dragged into smartcards as it was the first defensive response. That was my mistake.

Length comparisons between different cities rapid transit lines mean absolutely nothing. It's just an easily measurable dick measuring contest. The TTC has been grossly underfunded for 25 years. But, again, that doesn't matter in this bizzaro thread.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Um..... Canadair and de Haviland did not fail; they were absorbed into Bombardier. Before that Bombardier was primarily a rail and snowmobile manufacturer.

Avro was allowed to fail and a stark reminder of how devastating that can be. Canada never managed to re-enter the global fighter jet business. The bulk of that aerospace talent ended up in California working for Lockheed and other US aerospace firms. One can only speculate at what could have been and the spin off business that could have evolved from that asinine decision.

Hopefully Canada has learned a thing or two from past mistakes.

The Avro Arrow was an epic failure for the Canadian government's introduction into the fighter jet business. I agree it was shortsighted to shut it all down but also fully appreciate why they did bury it all.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The Avro Arrow was an epic failure for the Canadian government's introduction into the fighter jet business. I agree it was shortsighted to shut it all down but also fully appreciate why they did bury it all.

Because it was better than what the Americans could make... but that is for a different thread.