The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[caltrane74]

Bombardier stock was this close to going to "penny" status, the Quebec government bailed them out. Please do not give us a lecture about how great they are, and how much junk they sell in Germany. I would rather Bombardier sell its rail production operations in Ontario to the Germans or the French. A Japanese company building all our heavy rail would be a dream. When we go to RER I don't want Bombardier anywhere near the project. Nippon Sharyo all the way!!!

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by theman23

Geez talk about touchy. Why do I get the feeling you're a habsmanfan alt?

A what? I am a 'Hab fan' but I'm not from Montreal, I've only lived here a little over 4 years. In that 4 years though, I've noticed a certain tendency of Canadians to be hyper critical of anything that emanates from QC and a equal tendency of people - from Toronto in particular - to ignore, deny or paper over any potential signs of weakness. People in QC seem to be more open to laughing at themselves and acknowledging their foibles.

Just an observation, I hope to be posting from elsewhere in the next year or so.

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Bombardier stock was this close to going to "penny" status, the Quebec government bailed them out. Please do not give us a lecture about how great they are, and how much junk they sell in Germany. I would rather Bombardier sell its rail production operations in Ontario to the Germans or the French. A Japanese company building all our heavy rail would be a dream. When we go to RER I don't want Bombardier anywhere near the project. Nippon Sharyo all the way!!!

You should stick to the comparing the size of your erection section. The so-called 'junk' that Bombardier sells in Germany makes all transit in Canada look pathetic by comparison.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by OutOfTowner

A what? I am a 'Hab fan' but I'm not from Montreal, I've only lived here a little over 4 years. In that 4 years though, I've noticed a certain tendency of Canadians to be hyper critical of anything that emanates from QC and a equal tendency of people - from Toronto in particular - to ignore, deny or paper over any potential signs of weakness. People in QC seem to be more open to laughing at themselves and acknowledging their foibles.

Just an observation, I hope to be posting from elsewhere in the next year or so.

There was another poster a few years ago who had a similar biography. He also appeared normal at first but then grew increasingly unhinged as people started to question his tendency to fetishize everything related to Quebec and his ability to steer most conversations to some snide criticism of Toronto or a statement of Montreals superiority. Honestly, I've suspected it since you've arrived and now it appears that the mask is starting to unravel. Are you sure you're not him? Maybe a close relative?

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by theman23

There was another poster a few years ago who had a similar biography. He also appeared normal at first but then grew increasingly unhinged as people started to question his tendency to fetishize everything related to Quebec and his ability to steer most conversations to some snide criticism of Toronto or a statement of Montreals superiority. Honestly, I've suspected it since you've arrived and now it appears that the mask is starting to unravel. Are you sure you're not him? Maybe a close relative?

You're correct. He's my sister.

BTW I like Toronto, I love the streetcars. Montreal was stupid to rid themselves of theirs and would surely love to have them back. (That will never happen in my lifetime)

Perhaps it's just that so many of the posters from Toronto on this site (not at all representative of my friends in TO) seem to be - by and large - a bunch of pompous assholes?

[theman23]

I don't know, would saying "people should stop buying coffee from Tim Hortons?" or "yoga pants from lulu lemon" also be considered a display of poor character to you, or is Bombardier the only permissible sacred cow?

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by theman23

I don't know, would saying "people should stop buying coffee from Tim Hortons?" or "yoga pants from lulu lemon" also be considered a display of poor character to you, or is Bombardier the only permissible sacred cow?

The day that I see people being evacuated by air from some Central African disaster or people heading back to base camp in Antarctica wearing Lululemon while clutching a shitty cup of Tim Horton's glop, I will freely admit that Bombardier has met its match. Otherwise..

[niwell]

Originally Posted by OutOfTowner

I realise that it must be frustrating for the TTC but there's no guarantee that they wouldn't have gone through similar problems had they gone with Alstom or Siemens. Transit vehicles today are highly complex beasts, not the simple mechanical machines of days gone by. Problems abound.

That said, I'm sure that QC companies will be more than happy to continue to provide you with all of your subways, LRTs, streetcars, buses, GO trains, BIXI bikes and all planes that fly into Island Airport since all of your efforts at producing these devices seem to have failed.

Perhaps you could have even talked to the STM before the Presto fiasco. Opus is in its 9th year.

You complain about other people a lot but you are kind of a dick, aren't you? Also calling the transportation division of Bombardier a Quebec company is pretty laughable at this point. I have nothing against the company either and it was pretty clear that WS's original post was at least partly sarcastic. In true SSP fashion it started a shitstorm, of course.

EDIT: Even Bombardier aerospace is all over Canada, particularly if you include contractors and subcontractors for components. The planes that Porter uses are produced at Downsview airport and would have had components designed in multiple facilities country wide (including a global subcontractor I have friends working for in Mississauga).

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by OutOfTowner

I realise that it must be frustrating for the TTC but there's no guarantee that they wouldn't have gone through similar problems had they gone with Alstom or Siemens. Transit vehicles today are highly complex beasts, not the simple mechanical machines of days gone by. Problems abound.

That said, I'm sure that QC companies will be more than happy to continue to provide you with all of your subways, LRTs, streetcars, buses, GO trains, BIXI bikes and all planes that fly into Island Airport since all of your efforts at producing these devices seem to have failed.

Perhaps you could have even talked to the STM before the Presto fiasco. Opus is in its 9th year.

I'm not implying issues couldn't arise with other manufacturers. That's not my point. It's a rather simplistic viewpoint like how you rant about Bombardier being no more than a Quebec company. My curiosity lies with why the TTC continued with Bombardier instead of finding out for themselves if other companies are better, the same or, worse. They have done it for their bus manufacturer in the past. Of course, both had facilities in Ontario. My guess their hands are tied to Bombardier as transit remains a make work proposition for Queens Park.

As to the Azur problem. Luckily it wasn't a big deal. Still, you would think this would have been discovered before the fleet went into full service.

What's the point of bringing up Opus? You think it hasn't had issues over those 9 years? Most of the issues with Presto are accounting related. It comes with large corporations/governments. That's hardly a fiasco compared to other cities that rushed to join the smart card bandwagon with poorly conceived systems over the last decade. See Calgary. Toronto wouldn't have streetcars and highways would have decimated the inner city if all we cared about was being first out of the gate for every hare brain idea.

I just had the time to review your other posts. Nevermind. You're just a child.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Bombardier stock was this close to going to "penny" status, the Quebec government bailed them out. Please do not give us a lecture about how great they are, and how much junk they sell in Germany. I would rather Bombardier sell its rail production operations in Ontario to the Germans or the French. A Japanese company building all our heavy rail would be a dream. When we go to RER I don't want Bombardier anywhere near the project. Nippon Sharyo all the way!!!

Haven't the DMUs they are using on the UPX from Nippon Sharyo been problematic?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I'm not implying issues couldn't arise with other manufacturers. That's not my point. It's a rather simplistic viewpoint like how you rant about Bombardier being no more than a Quebec company. My curiosity lies with why the TTC continued with Bombardier instead of finding out for themselves if other companies are better, the same or, worse. They have done it for their bus manufacturer in the past. Of course, both had facilities in Ontario. My guess their hands are tied to Bombardier as transit remains a make work proposition for Queens Park.

As to the Azur problem. Luckily it wasn't a big deal. Still, you would think this would have been discovered before the fleet went into full service.

What's the point of bringing up Opus? You think it hasn't had issues over those 9 years? Most of the issues with Presto are accounting related. It comes with large corporations/governments. That's hardly a fiasco compared to other cities that rushed to join the smart card bandwagon with poorly conceived systems over the last decade. See Calgary. Toronto wouldn't have streetcars and highways would have decimated the inner city if all we cared about was being first out of the gate for every hare brain idea.

I just had the time to review your other posts. Nevermind. You're just a child.

At least not much money was spent on it by Calgary at least. Turns out it is hard to implement systems with more useful than paper features. Shouldn't have surprised anyone that looks at the space. Not sure Chicago's has ever worked at the tender's spec, and is Vancouver still operating a hobbled version? Presto in Ottawa seems to be at near full speed, though that was accomplished after lengthy acknowledgements of the limitations of the advanced features.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Bombardier stock was this close to going to "penny" status, the Quebec government bailed them out. Please do not give us a lecture about how great they are, and how much junk they sell in Germany. I would rather Bombardier sell its rail production operations in Ontario to the Germans or the French. A Japanese company building all our heavy rail would be a dream. When we go to RER I don't want Bombardier anywhere near the project. Nippon Sharyo all the way!!!

Of all the competition out there, I wonder why you've chosen Nippon Sharyo. In the North American market, it appears they've never produced anything that didn't look 30 years old the day it began service (LA Metro Rail, UPX, Metra/Caltrain).

I'm very pleased that Toronto finally got rail service to the airport, but on my ride on the UPX, I noticed how it sounded like we were riding a diesel tractor.

So perhaps it's the Shinkansen you're thinking of? In any case, I do feel a bit sad that Canadians outside of Québec are so anti-Bombardier, because they do
build good (and good-looking) products, and regardless of how multinational they are, they do represent a major source of jobs for Canadians.

Anyway, re: Nippon Sharyo design - It doesn't seem like it's just me who feels this way either, judging from the news today: https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j...oIeUz6M77kEAgQoDA&bvm=bv.144224172,d.d24

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

At least not much money was spent on it by Calgary at least. Turns out it is hard to implement systems with more useful than paper features. Shouldn't have surprised anyone that looks at the space. Not sure Chicago's has ever worked at the tender's spec, and is Vancouver still operating a hobbled version? Presto in Ottawa seems to be at near full speed, though that was accomplished after lengthy acknowledgements of the limitations of the advanced features.

To clarify, I only mentioned Calgary as it was the system with the most familiarity.

People (particularly from Montreal) can mock the TTC all they want. I don't really care. IMO, this was not one of those old guard, shortsighted moves to continue with an antiquated but, proven payment system over one that never proved itself competent. Oh the humanity! A paper transfer!

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Of all the competition out there, I wonder why you've chosen Nippon Sharyo. In the North American market, it appears they've never produced anything that didn't look 30 years old the day it began service (LA Metro Rail, UPX, Metra/Caltrain).

I'm very pleased that Toronto finally got rail service to the airport, but on my ride on the UPX, I noticed how it sounded like we were riding a diesel tractor.

So perhaps it's the Shinkansen you're thinking of? In any case, I do feel a bit sad that Canadians outside of Québec are so anti-Bombardier, because they do
build good (and good-looking) products, and regardless of how multinational they are, they do represent a major source of jobs for Canadians.

Anyway, re: Nippon Sharyo design - It doesn't seem like it's just me who feels this way either, judging from the news today: https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j...oIeUz6M77kEAgQoDA&bvm=bv.144224172,d.d24

C'mon. I'm not anti-Bombardier and I fully apprciate Canadians like to shit on themselves. I'd hate to be celebrity in Canada. I'm simply not convinced by their rail division work from what I have heard coming from the TTC and news out of Germany. Breakdowns are more frequent. There's more maintenance needed and parts wear out and require replacement before their prescribed lifespan. I'm sure this isn't exclusive to Bombardier but, I have heard better things about their competitors. Going back right to start of all this. My curiosity is the answer to this question. Is the TTC sticking with Bombardier despite all the problem they have had with them or are they being forced to stick with Bombardier?

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Of all the competition out there, I wonder why you've chosen Nippon Sharyo. In the North American market, it appears they've never produced anything that didn't look 30 years old the day it began service (LA Metro Rail, UPX, Metra/Caltrain).

I'm very pleased that Toronto finally got rail service to the airport, but on my ride on the UPX, I noticed how it sounded like we were riding a diesel tractor.

So perhaps it's the Shinkansen you're thinking of? In any case, I do feel a bit sad that Canadians outside of Québec are so anti-Bombardier, because they do
build good (and good-looking) products, and regardless of how multinational they are, they do represent a major source of jobs for Canadians.

Anyway, re: Nippon Sharyo design - It doesn't seem like it's just me who feels this way either, judging from the news today: https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j...oIeUz6M77kEAgQoDA&bvm=bv.144224172,d.d24

Yes, they make nice trains in consortium with other manufacturers. High Speed Rail is the natural extension if RER. And Bombardier has screwed LRT on Eglinton/Kitchener and screwed Toronto with the streetcar. No thanks.

If they had done what they were paid to do, there would be no hate from this side of the Ottawa river. They seem to keep commitments in Quebec, maybe they should stay there and only be a minority player in Ontario Rail Transit.

[eemy]

In fairness to Bombardier, the TRs in Toronto went fairly smoothly afaik, aside from some minor issues.

[GreaterMontréal]

Is the TTC sticking with Bombardier despite all the problem they have had with them or are they being forced to stick with Bombardier?

For each contract they must go through a bidding process. for the streetcars in Toronto, only 2 companies submitted bids, Bombardier and a small British firm. TRAM Power.. Siemens withdrew from the bid process

[Mister F]

The outright hostility that some of you have towards Bombardier is just sad. Bombardier is no better or worse than any other train manufacturer. They're one of the world's leaders at what they do and they sell their products all over the world. But I guess Canadians have to try to tear down one of our own when they get too big for their britches.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

To clarify, I only mentioned Calgary as it was the system with the most familiarity.

People (particularly from Montreal) can mock the TTC all they want. I don't really care. IMO, this was not one of those old guard, shortsighted moves to continue with an antiquated but, proven payment system over one that never proved itself competent. Oh the humanity! A paper transfer!

No offence but this kind of attitude is why we all but stopped building subways 30 years ago. It's like saying we should have kept using telegrams because they were a proven communication system over the yet to be proven to be competent telephone. So you have to say STOP in between sentences, oh the humanity!

There are many benefits to smartcards and they've been proven all over the world. The TTC likes to pretend it's 1965 but it's slowly being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The outright hostility that some of you have towards Bombardier is just sad. Bombardier is no better or worse than any other train manufacturer. They're one of the world's leaders at what they do and they sell their products all over the world. But I guess Canadians have to try to tear down one of our own when they get too big for their britches.


No offence but this kind of attitude is why we all but stopped building subways 30 years ago. It's like saying we should have kept using telegrams because they were a proven communication system over the yet to be proven to be competent telephone. So you have to say STOP in between sentences, oh the humanity!

There are many benefits to smartcards and they've been proven all over the world. The TTC likes to pretend it's 1965 but it's slowly being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

people will be able to rent a BIXI with their OPUS card.

[nephersir7]

Regarding the STM incident:

During a press conference held this morning, the STM provided an update regarding the service disruption on the Orange line on January 14, 2017.

What happened

On Saturday, January 14, 2017, signalling equipment at Du Collège station were heavily damaged in the aftermath of a passing train that also sustained damages. Several STM crews were dispatched on site and emergency repairs were performed on the tracks. Repairs were completed in the evening, allowing métro service to resume normally at opening time Sunday morning.

As for what caused this rare incident, an investigation is currently underway to determine whether the damages stem from a fault in the interface between trains and tracks.

What was done to ensure transit service
The STM quickly dispatched station managers, inspectors and additional personnel to the stations along the section of line impacted by the incident. A shuttle service was set up by re-assigning 53 available buses to provide transit service in that sector, with shuttle buses running every 10 minutes or so. STM also used social media to keep customers abreast of the situation, as it evolved.

Inspection of tracks and trains
Saturday night, STM specialists performed a detailed inspection of the tracks between Côte-Vertu and Montmorency stations. By Sunday morning, inspections were carried out on the MR-73 and AZUR trains involved. All trains were inspected; damages were found on some trains (more extensive on AZUR trains because of their wider wheelbase). The STM is looking into the matter to determine the underlying reason (track or train) for this occurrence. Out of prevention, the STM pulled off its 12 AZUR trains, until the investigation concludes.

Priority plan
The STM will allow trains to resume service as quickly as possible, to minimize the impact on customer service, while hoping to finish its investigation as soon as possible. First on the list are the repairs to the MR-73 cars that sustained more minor damages, as their systems are well-known to us. At the same time, work on the AZUR cars, likely to take longer, will begin. The STM will make use of camera surveillance video from under the trains to analyze how the trains interact with the tracks.

The métro system is reliable
Keep in mind that the reliability of the Montréal métro is above the global average, with 12 service disruptions per million kilometres for the STM versus an international average of 22 such disruptions. Furthermore, despite events in the last two month, by December 31, 2016, some 924 incidents lasting 5 minutes or more were logged, compared with 956 in 2015, for a 3.3% overall decrease.

Pictures

Damaged third rail contact shoe



Damaged track switch





Damaged signaling equipment

http://www.stm.info/en/press/news/2017/u...17-service-disruption-on-the-orange-line

BTW, the whole part of the new Azur trains that is in contact with the tracks is designed and manufactured by Alstom, not Bombardier.

So this whole thing is either Alstom's fault (less likely), or the STM's fault (more likely). It technically cannot be Bombardier's fault.