PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Honestly, looking closely, there's really only about a block and a half (say...from 8th to 10th on the south side) that has the ghetto look. Fill in 13th and the Disney hole and it's actually closer than you think. And I believe that Preit already owns a bunch of the ghetto lookin' properties in that stretch.

It does seem to be turning slowly, though.

I'd say it's not great from 6th through 10th. Right after you pass La Colombe. But it's on its way. There are currently a lot of vacancies. Hopefully those start to fill in with some decent tenants as a start.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Honestly, looking closely, there's really only about a block and a half (say...from 8th to 10th on the south side) that has the ghetto look. Fill in 13th and the Disney hole and it's actually closer than you think. And I believe that Preit already owns a bunch of the ghetto lookin' properties in that stretch.

It does seem to be turning slowly, though.

it could get better but I dont think anyone is going to make a decision about not returning to visit Philly over 4 blocks of Market street.

[iheartphilly]

For folks that never visited Philly and it's their first time as a conventioneer on a day-trip or overnight trip, first impressions or experience with the City is critical on whether that person will entertain a future visit on a non-business and casual basis. So, I do think it does matter in how East Market will look and feel over the next few years. Is it vibrant, clean, and the area full of restaurants, shops, and energy. This generally leads one to explore more of the city. Positive impressions of a city goes a long way. I get first impressions all the time when visiting other cities and formulate my own opinions based off of it and whether I want to go back and visit it some more.

[1487]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

For folks that never visited Philly and it's their first time as a conventioneer on a day-trip or overnight trip, first impressions or experience with the City is critical on whether that person will entertain a future visit on a non-business and casual basis. So, I do think it does matter in how East Market will look and feel over the next few years. Is it vibrant, clean, and the area full of restaurants, shops, and energy. This generally leads one to explore more of the city. Positive impressions of a city goes a long way. I get first impressions all the time when visiting other cities and formulate my own opinions based off of it and whether I want to go back and visit it some more.

That's fine but there aren't even any hotels Market beyond 12th street and there is much to see in and around CC aside from 5 blocks of East Market. And every major city has areas that need some work- that's because they are real places with real challenges, not resorts. Unless you are specifically walking to the Liberty Bell there really isn't much incentive to walk down Market from 12th towards 5th. That may change once all this Gallery work is done, but it's just not the case currently.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by 1487

That's fine but there aren't even any hotels Market beyond 12th street and there is much to see in and around CC aside from 5 blocks of East Market. And every major city has areas that need some work- that's because they are real places with real challenges, not resorts. Unless you are specifically walking to the Liberty Bell there really isn't much incentive to walk down Market from 12th towards 5th. That may change once all this Gallery work is done, but it's just not the case currently.

Good thing none of the tourists want to see the Liberty Bell.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Good thing none of the tourists want to see the Liberty Bell.

most of them aren't walking down market to get there. Not when you have SEPTA, Philly Phlash, etc. Especially when you consider there aren't a ton of hotels along the east side of market. This is what real cities look like. It's like saying seeing a homeless person may be enough to convince someone not to come back. If that is the case a lot of tourists will be scared away from a lot of cities. Better go to Disney world if you want to see Utopia.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by 1487

That's fine but there aren't even any hotels Market beyond 12th street and there is much to see in and around CC aside from 5 blocks of East Market. And every major city has areas that need some work- that's because they are real places with real challenges, not resorts. Unless you are specifically walking to the Liberty Bell there really isn't much incentive to walk down Market from 12th towards 5th. That may change once all this Gallery work is done, but it's just not the case currently.

Agree. In my opinion, this stretch of East Market remains the most divested, least interesting stretch in all of Center City. There are plenty of other blocks that are not glossy, but they nonetheless have some vibrancy. I do think this will change with the East Market dual towers and the Gallery development. Lots of stores and restaurants and bars that are supposed to be coming. At present, there are virtually none I'd go to on this entire stretch.

[Schuylkill Ranger]

Perhaps the best thing we can do to clean up the city's tourist experience is to create more jobs. My business takes me to many cities and only in Philly do you find large groups of 40 -50 year old males congregating on corners, often using obscenities with no regard for other pedestrians. Surveys in the tourism business consistently show that "feeling safe" is the number one factor considered by travelers for return visits to a destination. New retail and office spaces provide some window dressing, but we need to address the human interaction that leaves many vacationers with a visceral sense of fear.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by Schuylkill Ranger

Perhaps the best thing we can do to clean up the city's tourist experience is to create more jobs. My business takes me to many cities and only in Philly do you find large groups of 40 -50 year old males congregating on corners, often using obscenities with no regard for other pedestrians. Surveys in the tourism business consistently show that "feeling safe" is the number one factor considered by travelers for return visits to a destination. New retail and office spaces provide some window dressing, but we need to address the human interaction that leaves many vacationers with a visceral sense of fear.

That's in San Francisco too to be fair.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Larry King

That's in San Francisco too to be fair.

There are no areas of center city "where large groups of 40-50 year old men yell obscenities" at people. Im sorry but I live and spend 95% of my time downtown, I'm calling shanigans on that.

[mja]

Originally Posted by Schuylkill Ranger

Perhaps the best thing we can do to clean up the city's tourist experience is to create more jobs. My business takes me to many cities and only in Philly do you find large groups of 40 -50 year old males congregating on corners, often using obscenities with no regard for other pedestrians. Surveys in the tourism business consistently show that "feeling safe" is the number one factor considered by travelers for return visits to a destination. New retail and office spaces provide some window dressing, but we need to address the human interaction that leaves many vacationers with a visceral sense of fear.

🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. On what corners do these large groups of 40-50 year old men cursing congregate on, because I've yet to run across a single one in my 40 years of living in Philadelphia.

[AbortedWalrus]

Must be talking about the black hebrew israelites? Are people actually afraid of those clowns?

[br323206]

Originally Posted by mja

🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. On what corners do these large groups of 40-50 year old men cursing congregate on, because I've yet to run across a single one in my 40 years of living in Philadelphia.

I'll throw my hat into this ring. I live two blocks from East Market and have also never seen these groups of men. I also travel extensively and in my experience Philly has one of the nicest downtowns of any American city.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by AbortedWalrus

Must be talking about the black hebrew israelites? Are people actually afraid of those clowns?

Yea, I thought of that too but what an exaggeration by the OP. There are only ever two or three of these guys on a corner at a time and it only happens occasionally. Not to mention that there are groups of Black Hebrew Israelites in just about every major American city.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by br323206

I'll throw my hat into this ring. I live two blocks from East Market and have also never seen these groups of men. I also travel extensively and in my experience Philly has one of the nicest downtowns of any American city.

It's true. Everyone always envisions NYC as this beautiful safe clean millionaire's playground, and while it is a ton of fun, I'm always caught off-guard by how much trash and homelessness there is in NY.

It's like some people only notice it in Philly because it's supposed to be here but in other towns, it goes unnoticed.

While much smaller in scale, I truly believe that Philly is every bit as cool/safe/nice as NYC.

[summersm343]

I too feel as if Philadelphia gets a lot of flack for things that other cities - like NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc. - get a pass for.

I've never seen more homeless people than I have seen in San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle. Yet people on here complain about Philadelphia's homeless? Get out of here... it's nothing compared to those cities.

I've seen the Black Israelite's in DC and NYC.

I do believe that Market East needs to continue to build up, and become a chain restaurant and chain retailer mecca that will draw in tourists and give a positive view of our city to a lot of people venturing from Independence Mall... but this idea that these things are in other cities is absurd.

[PhillySteaks]

Originally Posted by AbortedWalrus

Must be talking about the black hebrew israelites? Are people actually afraid of those clowns?

I always thought they were wannabe black KKK members or something, with the hoods, racial hatred, and what not. They're always great for a laugh, and usually out more when the weather is warm i.e tourist season. I kind of thought they added to the charm of Market East.

Not sure who said there was no point to walking down Market East as a tourist...that's BS. I see tons of tourists there on the way to reading terminal market or city hall. The Marriott, Market East Station, Bus Depot, Reading Terminal Market, and Chinatown are all directly off that main artery.

As for homeless - I've noticed significant amounts of them in West Coast cities - way more than Philly. Very few in Boston, NYC, DC. I think the matter is that Philadelphia homeless tend to be, but not always, 100000000x more aggressive than other cities. So while there may not actually be a ton, it may feel like a ton. Watched a guy punch a woman once for not giving him a quarter on 13th and Walnut. That's the extreme case but I've been, and seen others, harassed many many many many many times walking around allover CC. You have to look at the quantity of homeless on a per capita basis - how many homeless people per population, that's why they tend to blend in up in NYC. Much more obvious in philly - aggressive too.

[1487]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Agree. In my opinion, this stretch of East Market remains the most divested, least interesting stretch in all of Center City. There are plenty of other blocks that are not glossy, but they nonetheless have some vibrancy. I do think this will change with the East Market dual towers and the Gallery development. Lots of stores and restaurants and bars that are supposed to be coming. At present, there are virtually none I'd go to on this entire stretch.

there aren't any period aside from McDonalds and Burger King.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Schuylkill Ranger

Perhaps the best thing we can do to clean up the city's tourist experience is to create more jobs. My business takes me to many cities and only in Philly do you find large groups of 40 -50 year old males congregating on corners, often using obscenities with no regard for other pedestrians. Surveys in the tourism business consistently show that "feeling safe" is the number one factor considered by travelers for return visits to a destination. New retail and office spaces provide some window dressing, but we need to address the human interaction that leaves many vacationers with a visceral sense of fear.

what surveys or evidence to do you have to back this up? Since they worked out issues with labor at the convention center many groups are rebooking. So you see tourists being harrassed by large groups of males on a regular basis? Or ever?

[1487]

Originally Posted by br323206

Yea, I thought of that too but what an exaggeration by the OP. There are only ever two or three of these guys on a corner at a time and it only happens occasionally. Not to mention that there are groups of Black Hebrew Israelites in just about every major American city.

They aren't even in CC regularly anymore. Not sure how long people plan to go back to well with this one. Maybe one day people will stop comparing one of the largest, densest downtowns with an amusement park or vacation resort. This is a real place, with real people and real city issues. Those who want all this to not be apparent because we are trying to make sure midwestern (white) tourists from small town America feel like they are visiting some sort of Utopian vision of urban america need to get a grip on reality.