The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Still insisting that they're always one and the same are you? I've already shown you that that's not always the case. Rapid transit is not only defined more broadly than metro by dictionaries and encyclopedias, but also by the engineers and planners who design the damn things. Feel free to stick to your overly rigid definitions if you want, just don't be surprised when people correct you.

I've already shown multiple sources indicating that they're the same, and that this isn't a definition that I've created. This whole discussion arose when you created confusion with your incorrect understanding of the terms, but I agree it's often important to elaborate a bit when discussing this topic as there are a lot of people whose understanding of the terms is at best murky. And I also agree that the discussion is pretty much tapped out, but at least the situation is a lot clearer.

[eemy]

You're the one insisting on sticking with what is effectively an archaic, overly strict definition of a term despite many examples of it's current usage being much broader.

Your appeal to authority (some author of an APTA report in 1996) completely misunderstands how the English language works. English isn't prescriptive. If we were in some sort of transit working group for APTA, then maybe we ought to use that old, strict definition (although I'd still argue that that particular definition is completely useless), but since we aren't, maybe the general definition that is used by the world at large as has been demonstrated repeatedly would be more appropriate.

[Nouvellecosse]

That's not true. I'm insisting on using the term for situations where everyone agrees it applies (does anyone dispute that a metro system is a rapid transit system?) and others are insisting on using it in areas where it's greatly disputed despite the confusion it's causing. And all the while people using the slight of hand of saying that my use of the definition is "overly specific", when their use of the terms isn't any less strict given they're insisting systems be elevated from another category (such as commuter rail) as soon as they reach certain specific criteria such as an arbitrary frequency level.

The difference is, I've been able to point to numerous pieces of documentation of the term rapid transit and metro/subway being used interchangeably, while evidence of commuter rail suddenly being defined as rapid transit systems as soon as they reach 20 minute (or whichever) frequency has yet to materialize.

Yes I agree that the English language often evolves over time and uses of words can shift. That just isn't something that's relevant here. This discussion arose when he posted something like "People in the GTA have no idea a huge rapid transit system is being constructed". Obviously he was using the term in a very strict and specific way considering that most or all of the commuter rail corridors already exist and were simply gaining frequency and/or electrification. He was implying that crossing some threshold suddenly changed the services into rapid transit (causing confusion as to what was actually being constructed). He just wasn't able to demonstrate evidence as to why his strict use of the terms is accurate.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

All true, but this is a much more recent (last 10 years) phenomenon. Also, back then, when GO added a train set, it would use it to run an additional rush hour run, but otherwise have the train set sitting in the yard during the middle of the day.

I applaud Metrolinx for slowly changing the operational culture at GO. I know it doesn't come easy or quickly, and changing the infrastructure is expensive and time-consuming. Some lines will never be all day 2 way simply because the freight operator (notably CP on the Milton line) will continue to be stubborn.

At the same time, you have to admit that some of the old commuter train culture still persists. Metrolinx has owned the Stouffville line for years but still runs the same rush hour-only service. They're incrementally double tracking the line to get all day 2 way service, but, in the meantime, they could probably run a service at least to Unionville, and build a passing track midway to enable 2 way service. If capacity at Union is currently the limiting factor, they could at least run a shuttle to Scarborough GO timed to connect with Lakeshore East runs.

They could but, they also have a very full plate in upgrading all the corridors they own and plan for future corridors. I really don't agree with the priority to get Kitchener upgraded as it will take a ton more money but, understand as a small fortune was already spent to upgrade the Weston sub.

[WhipperSnapper]

It's 2017. Let's put the meanings of terms to rest as well as the per kilometre comparisons between systems that tend to ignite the endless debates.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

They could but, they also have a very full plate in upgrading all the corridors they own and plan for future corridors. I really don't agree with the priority to get Kitchener upgraded as it will take a ton more money but, understand as a small fortune was already spent to upgrade the Weston sub.

Isn't two way all day service at 30 mins or hourly frequencies coming to the Stouffville line very soon (as in this year)?

[Innsertnamehere]

weekday off peak is planned this year, at a roughly hourly schedule. It'll be 18 new trips (9 each way) in the off peak periods (9am - 3pm, 7pm - midnight), so not quite hourly. I suspect it'll be sometime in September.

Kitchener is supposed to get Weekend service this year as well, and that will probably start sooner, maybe in the spring.

Barrie is supposed to get weekday off peak in 2018, and started weekend off peak a week ago. I think Stouffville is scheduled for weekend off peak in 2019, though I'm not sure.


My understanding is that these levels of off peak service will then stay in place until 2022-2025, as RER services start to come online.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Well Transit Regina, I'm expecting big things for the $92 a month transit pass. Oh wait it is the same service as when I was paying $65 just three years ago. Nice. Almost a 50% increase with no discernable value to the consumer. Impressive. I'm sure you'll like when March rolls around and I start walking to work. Sure it's an extra 20 minutes each direction for me but the cost savings is worth it. If I do that for half the year then your revenue from me will have dropped despite the price increase. You obviously failed economics 101. There is indeed a price at which consumers will make other choices.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Well Transit Regina, I'm expecting big things for the $92 a month transit pass. Oh wait it is the same service as when I was paying $65 just three years ago. Nice. Almost a 50% increase with no discernable value to the consumer. Impressive. I'm sure you'll like when March rolls around and I start walking to work. Sure it's an extra 20 minutes each direction for me but the cost savings is worth it. If I do that for half the year then your revenue from me will have dropped despite the price increase. You obviously failed economics 101. There is indeed a price at which consumers will make other choices.

That's a pretty dramatic price increase.

Since 2011 Ottawa's approach is to have fare hikes increase by a few bucks a year; keeps everything predictable and helps avoid sudden shocks. In Kingston we have this pattern of increasing fares by about 7-8% every 3 years, which leads to a bit of a shock every time fares go up.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That's not true. I'm insisting on using the term for situations where everyone agrees it applies (does anyone dispute that a metro system is a rapid transit system?) and others are insisting on using it in areas where it's greatly disputed despite the confusion it's causing. And all the while people using the slight of hand of saying that my use of the definition is "overly specific", when their use of the terms isn't any less strict given they're insisting systems be elevated from another category (such as commuter rail) as soon as they reach certain specific criteria such as an arbitrary frequency level.

The difference is, I've been able to point to numerous pieces of documentation of the term rapid transit and metro/subway being used interchangeably, while evidence of commuter rail suddenly being defined as rapid transit systems as soon as they reach 20 minute (or whichever) frequency has yet to materialize.

Yes I agree that the English language often evolves over time and uses of words can shift. That just isn't something that's relevant here. This discussion arose when he posted something like "People in the GTA have no idea a huge rapid transit system is being constructed". Obviously he was using the term in a very strict and specific way considering that most or all of the commuter rail corridors already exist and were simply gaining frequency and/or electrification. He was implying that crossing some threshold suddenly changed the services into rapid transit (causing confusion as to what was actually being constructed). He just wasn't able to demonstrate evidence as to why his strict use of the terms is accurate.

Well that's just it, everyone doesn't agree with your definition and the documentation you point to doesn't prove your point at all. The way it's actually used not only by laypeople but also by the professionals who design and operate the systems, rapid transit is a broader term. And if you want to refer to encyclopedias, Wikipedia calls S-bahn type systems a variation of rapid transit. It refers to Skytrain-style light metro in the same way. And it refers to the Paris RER as "commuter rapid transit".

There's very little standardization of transit terminology. Terms like subway, light rail, and regional rail mean different things in different parts of the world, and even between cities in the same country. Rapid transit is no different. The term isn't nearly as rigid as you think.

[ssiguy]

Terms these days are becoming so blurred. The only thing that is universally accepted is that a Metro must be 100% grade separated, for local/regional services, electric and the technology used is irrelevant.

There are many types of non-Metro systems that are faster than Metro transit. Ottawa's & Missisauga's Transitways are incredibly fast.

[Innsertnamehere]

Can mods legit ban this mode conversation? This thread for the past 2 months (and beyond) has been nothing but endless bickering. Everyone shut up already.

[lrt's friend]

Yes, let's focus on what is happening in various cities.

[SteelTown]

Much better plan for Hamilton's LRT plan, Hamilton is basically getting LRT for B-Line and BRT for the A-Line at the same time.

James North LRT would be killed for airport express bus in new plan

http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/706...led-for-airport-express-bus-in-new-plan/

Hamilton's $1 billion LRT project may be getting a game-changing shakeup.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger says Metrolinx is considering killing the 2-km James Street North spur line for an alternative that has "greater value and cost efficiency."

"I don't know what and when the province is going to announce anything on this but I do know it's been a topic of conversation."

Multiple sources, however, say the proposal is to replace the James North spur with an express bus service from the waterfront to the airport on James and Upper James — essentially building the full A-line route that's part of the city-wide BLAST express bus service.

Source says an announcement, originally planned for Monday, is now expected to take place in a couple of weeks.

The proposal would not affect the 11-km east-west LRT route from McMaster to the Queenston traffic circle.

Eisenberger says the James spur was an "add on" to the $1 billion provincial funding announcement that had never undergone a cost-benefit analysis.

"I assume that Metrolinx has done it now and I'm pretty confident it shows that it's not the most viable business case analysis evaluation … for an LRT on James."

If the spur is replaced with express buses from the waterfront to the airport, Eisenberger thinks it probably would provide a better bang for the buck in terms of enhancing public transportation.

West Mountain Coun. Terry Whitehead is greeting the proposed change with a mix of enthusiasm and caution.

"From my perspective, it's great news. But if we were given a choice, I would have a tough time taking that over getting (LRT) out to Eastgate," as originally proposed.

Whitehead has argued the necessity of linking the LRT system with other areas of the city, but he also believes light rail would drive more ridership if it went all the way to Eastgate Mall.

[GlassCity]

I know this is very preliminary news, but I still have questions...

So how "BRT" would this BRT actually be? Like full VIVA on Highway 7 level, or just a regular express bus with limited stops and maybe all-door boarding?

Because I imagine if it was built to the same specifications as Highway 7 in York Region, a conversion to light rail would be unlikely, at least not for a long, long time. And if so, that would set a bit of a precedent that other lines in the BLAST network could be done in BRT as well.

Either way, exciting stuff, I'm a big fan of BRT, and of Hamilton!

Content removed

[J.OT13]

Update on Confederation Line.

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Construction Update
Week of January 9

With the holiday season now behind us, station construction activities ramp up along the 12.5-kilometre LRT alignment, with concrete work at Tunney’s Pasture Station continuing and, by end of the week, masonry installation at uOttawa Station getting underway.

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Pimisi Station suspended slab and station progress

West Stations

Tunney’s Pasture Station: This week, crews drill rock anchors and continue station excavation.

Bayview Station: Construction advances at the station and includes installing grade beams and duct banks as well as concrete work for the ancillary building.

Pimisi Station: Suspended slab construction, formwork and mechanical and electrical work are ongoing at the station.

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Rideau Station cavern arch concrete work

Central Stations

Lyon Station cavern: Station architectural works progress and include formwork, work on station stairs and curbs, and installation of masonry. In the west transition, work on the arch and concourse wall is ongoing.

Lyon Station west entrance: Work continues at the entrance, including on the station walls and beams. Excavation and wire saw cutting for an anticipated breakthrough to the tunnel occur at the east vent shaft.

Lyon Station east entrance : Integrated entrance construction advances with the installation of masonry at the parking level and concrete work on the ground floor mechanical room and walls. At the HVAC shaft, crews begin wire saw cutting.

Parliament Station cavern: Crews install rebar on station columns, continue working on the deck and forming the arch in anticipation of concrete pours. Concrete pours for the mud slab continue in the running tunnel.

Parliament Station west entrance: This week’s activities at the integrated entrance include work on parapets. Crews also continue hand chipping rock and excavation at the east vent shaft.

Parliament Station east entrance:
Crews begin rock support activities and install rock bolts as part of work on the integrated entrance.

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Concrete pours of the mud slab at the East Portal ramp

Rideau Station cavern: Work on the station arch continues and includes waterproofing and rebar installation in sections, followed by the beginning of the final concrete lining. Crews also pour concrete for station walls.

Rideau Station west entrance: Construction of the station entrance continues to ramp up with 24/7 activities. This week, work includes excavation, spraying shotcrete, and installing whaler beams and struts as part of station reinforcements. Crews begin line drilling and rock excavation at the HVAC shaft.

Rideau Station east entrance: The integrated entrance continues to progress with crews waterproofing walls, forming the elevator pits and stairs, in addition to installing rebar on the exterior station walls.

Rideau Street remains open to buses and taxis only. Regular traffic continues to be prohibited on this portion of Rideau Street until the Confederation Line begins operation in 2018.

uOttawa Station: Crews prepare to install masonry at the station at the end of the week and continue forming stairs as well as mechanical and electrical work.

East Portal: Construction of the ramp is ongoing. This week, crews continue pouring the mud slab, waterproofing and shotcrete activities, as well as installing whaler beams during the daytime and overnight.

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Work on station roof at Tremblay Station

East Stations

Lees Station: Crews continue micro-piling and working on the auxiliary building.

Hurdman Station: Station construction progresses with roofing, glazing, the installation of structural steel and masonry, as well as concrete work on stairs and suspended slabs in sections. At the bus operators’ building, crews install porcelain panels and work on the ceiling, in addition to beginning tiling activities.

Tremblay Station: Construction progresses at the station with mobilization to begin the next phase of roofing this week. In addition, work occurs on parapets, elevators and interior rooms.

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Panel installation, Blair Station

St-Laurent Station: Ceiling hanger work advances at the station and final steel installation occurs for the plenum.

Cyrville Station: Work advances at the station and includes porcelain panels installation on the auxiliary building, composite panel work, sub framing for the ceiling and glazing in sections.

Blair Station: Crews frame the ceiling and install composite and porcelain panels in the station. At the bus operators’ building, work includes final mechanical rough-ins and ceiling framing.

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Tunnel reinforcements-running tunnel west of Rideau Station

Excavation and reinforcements are ongoing.

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Preparing crossover tracks on guideway-east of Tunney's Pasture Station

Guideway

Tunney’s Pasture Station to West Portal: Guideway activities in this section include saw cutting and removals of the parapets along Bayview Bridge, work on the retaining walls and drilling for the crossover tracks.

Mann Avenue Bridge: Crews continue constructing the bridge’s wing walls in anticipation of a concrete pour by the end of the month.

Mann Avenue Bridge to Blair Station: Work resumes this week, including drilling dowels for plinths, part of trackwork along this section of guideway and construction of the traction power sub station foundation west of Lees Station. Vehicle testing, including dynamic testing, continues between Cyrville and Blair stations.

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Upcoming Construction Activities

In the coming weeks, the following construction activities are scheduled to occur:

• Pimisi Station structural steel installation.
• Lyon Station west vent shaft work resumes.
• Ongoing overnight work at the Rideau Station west and east entrances, and at the East Portal.
• Structural steel installation at uOttawa and Lees.
• Masonry installation at uOttawa Station.
• Overnight bracket installation at the Mann Avenue bridge; lane restrictions will occur during this work.
• Installation of the traction power sub station on the guideway west of Lees Station.
• Fencing installation on guideway just west of Tremblay Station.

Overhead Catenary System energized in phases for ongoing vehicle testing from Belfast Yard and Blair Station.

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca/construction/construction-update-106/

[caltrane74]

Double post.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

A sneak peak into Toronto's newest subway station


http://www.blogto.com/city/2017/01/what-torontos-newest-ttc-station-looks/
www.blogto.com

This one comes with a GO Train/Future RER connection. I believe other new stations and LRT lines will also come with this feature

[gunnar777]

Does anyone know what's going on with the Montréal REM?
My understanding was that La Caisse and the Province had committed their portions of funding contingent upon federal funding, and that the pro-instrastructure Liberals were expected to confirm their financial support last Fall. But that time has come and gone, and shovels are supposed to be in the ground this spring... Any ideas?