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  #9181  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 3:39 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Didn't Vancouver residents vote against transit investment?
Unfortunately yes. Although the suburbs were opposed to it more than Vancouver proper.
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  #9182  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 4:04 AM
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The voted down proposal included new taxes. People want transit investment but they don't want the revenue tools needed to pay for them.
     
     
  #9183  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Unfortunately the "Public Transit Infrastructure Fund" money seems like it will be allocated per province based on current ridership, which means that places in provinces with underdeveloped transit will be underfunded.

In Atlantic Canada, this is consistent with the old pattern of federal money going into rural areas and bypassing the cities. And as far as Canada as a whole goes it's more of the same pattern of doling out money rather than spending strategically in order to generate the most value per dollar spent.
Isn't giving the funding to agencies with the most ridership the most strategic way to generate the most value per dollar spent?

This isn't really an example of what the infrastructure fund pays for but, for the sake of an apples to apples comparison, the purchase of a new bus for the TTC or STM will probably be of more utility (serve way more people; have a greater impact on the productivity of the local economy or mitigate economic loss due to congestion) than the purchase of a bus for Charlottetown transit.
     
     
  #9184  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 6:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Isn't giving the funding to agencies with the most ridership the most strategic way to generate the most value per dollar spent?
I am not sure anything useful can be said in the abstract without looking at concrete projects to see what is possible in different areas.

Another abstract argument would be that the places with low ridership might have more low-hanging fruit; projects that would generate more benefit for little money. This is not far-fetched when you consider what infrastructure costs can be like in bigger cities or what basic transit infrastructure is missing in the smaller cities.

This probably doesn't include capital costs but to give you one example I know of, Halifax's transit farebox recovery rate is about 70 percent, higher than Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver. It is one of the least-subsidized transit systems in Canada, at least in terms of operating costs. In general, I think that city is actually more starved of new infrastructure than the Vancouver area is. Not all of that is the fault of the federal government of course, but some of it is.

Quote:
This isn't really an example of what the infrastructure fund pays for but, for the sake of an apples to apples comparison, the purchase of a new bus for the TTC or STM will probably be of more utility (serve way more people; have a greater impact on the productivity of the local economy or mitigate economic loss due to congestion) than the purchase of a bus for Charlottetown transit.
The recently-announced funding actually did include simply paying for buses, including routes in small towns and rural areas. Some of the rural services are hard to value because a lot of people have no real alternatives to using them.

But I am not really talking about places like Charlottetown, or at least I don't know enough about the transit situation there to comment. I am thinking of cities like Winnipeg and Halifax versus cities like Kitchener-Waterloo, which falls under Ontario's per capita ridership apportionment. Kitchener's light rail project received a funding commitment of $300M from the federal government back in 2010 for a project that is expected to start out with about 30,000 daily riders (I'm not sure how many of those are new riders). Maybe it's a great project, but it's hard to find anything analogous in other provinces, and it's hard to imagine that that project was the absolute best bang for the buck available nationally.
     
     
  #9185  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 6:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Vantage View Post
Unfortunately yes. Although the suburbs were opposed to it more than Vancouver proper.
That's because the taxes were categorically unfair to people living South of Fraser.

The tax was going to help build a new Pattulo Bridge between NuWest & Surrey but would still be tolled. That's right, higher taxes so you have the honour of paying tolls on a bridge you don't right now. The people SoF have been dealt the cards of paying for 100% of the cost of the Port Mann & HWY#1 expansion even though the expansion is larger in Burnaby, Coquitlam, New West, and Vancouver. The government says the toll is for the bridge but it was all part of the same budget but instead of tolling the whole highway based on distance let's just have the people SoF pay for. The tony types in North Van who are seeing their part of HWY upgraded are of course not being asked to pay one nickel.

The new Massey Tunnel will also be tolled but the new bridge over to Maple Ridge to PoCo wasn't. They say that's because MR/PM have no other options which is true but what about the people in Ladner & Twas? They are expected to travel 20km out of their way to enjoy what will remain as the only non-tolled bridge connecting the 800,000 SoF to all other areas of Metro. The people in MR/PM also have more transit options with the new Evergreen Line and the West Coast Express commuter line but no such luck for SoF. The well-to-do people who go the Whistler every weekend got a massive upgrade to the Sea To Sky Highway and of course pay nothing for it.

The people SoF were being asked to pay a far higher level of taxation {and Vancouver already has the highest gas prices in NA} yet suffer from the worse transit service in Metro. People in Vancouver were more supportive because they were the ones who already have the best service, most of the new expansion money would happen there {Broadway subway} and yet wouldn't have to deal with pesky little problems of being charged $4 every time they cross a bridge.
     
     
  #9186  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 6:43 AM
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BTW, I support user pay and don't mind paying for transit expansion but seeing the people NoF were being asked to pay far less than their southern counterparts, I voted against it. Taxes have to be productive but they also have to be fair.
     
     
  #9187  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
The voted down proposal included new taxes. People want transit investment but they don't want the revenue tools needed to pay for them.
It is not just transit investment.

Everyone wants new transit, roads, schools, hospitals, ships, planes, etc, yet they do not want their taxes to go up.

We have been living in a tax cutting world for too long that we now can barely afford that which we already have.

I for one am looking forward to the 3% or $50/year increase in my property taxes. Maybe then, we can start to maintain that which already exists, but is crumbling.
     
     
  #9188  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Another abstract argument would be that the places with low ridership might have more low-hanging fruit; projects that would generate more benefit for little money. This is not far-fetched when you consider what infrastructure costs can be like in bigger cities or what basic transit infrastructure is missing in the smaller cities.
My observation is that small towns don't need more capital infrastructure, they need better transit planning and administration. Most mid-sized towns have a fleet of new buses with operators often driving two or three passengers around on a half hour schedule. Simple things like moving to a grid-based system, rather than all routes terminating at a central terminal at the same time, or subsidizing private van operators to pick up passengers would do a lot more than buying more buses. Unfortunately, the quality of municipal transit and land use planning is not something the Federal government has any recourse over.

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This probably doesn't include capital costs but to give you one example I know of, Halifax's transit farebox recovery rate is about 70 percent, higher than Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver. It is one of the least-subsidized transit systems in Canada, at least in terms of operating costs. In general, I think that city is actually more starved of new infrastructure than the Vancouver area is. Not all of that is the fault of the federal government of course, but some of it is.
I'm not sure farebox recovery is indicative of "need". Often it just signals that an agency wants to run transit like a profit-making (or loss-averting) business, rather than as a value-adding but necessarily unprofitable service.

To give you an example, 12 years ago GO transit had one of - if not the - highest farebox recoveries of any agency in North America, somewhere north of 90%. Of course, most of its service consisted of running trains only at rush hours to serve middle class suburban commuters making the last mile of their trip using their private cars. Not surprisingly, most of their trains were at capacity.

The management of GO transit at the time (and still, to some extent) did not really want to change this operating culture, so when they received money, they used it to buy more cars to lengthen existing trainsets from 10 to 12 cars and expand parking lots. But they still ran the same number of trains in the same patterns and catered to the same customer base. It wasn't until recently that they began to draw up big plans to turn GO from a rush-hour-only, downtown-only commuter service to something more akin to a transit system, providing round-the-clock mobility throughout the region.

It could be that Halifax Metro Transit is in a similar situation. Are they running a lot of rush hour-only buses in from the suburbs, and generally neglecting less lucrative service which is still needed? That might give them a high farebox recovery, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a "good" transit system with an operational culture that should be rewarded.

Ideally, the Federal government would have a transit czar that would scrutinize each agency's operations before plying them with cash. In the absence of that, though, I think giving systems money based on their per capita ridership is probably the simplest way to allocate money effectively. Generally when transit agencies prioritize service levels and network coverage and run buses on tight frequencies, ridership follows, so ridership is a pretty good proxy for effectiveness.

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But I am not really talking about places like Charlottetown, or at least I don't know enough about the transit situation there to comment. I am thinking of cities like Winnipeg and Halifax versus cities like Kitchener-Waterloo, which falls under Ontario's per capita ridership apportionment. Kitchener's light rail project received a funding commitment of $300M from the federal government back in 2010 for a project that is expected to start out with about 30,000 daily riders (I'm not sure how many of those are new riders). Maybe it's a great project, but it's hard to find anything analogous in other provinces, and it's hard to imagine that that project was the absolute best bang for the buck available nationally.
This has nothing to do with preferential treatment of KW, and everything to do with the fact that KW has a shovel-ready plan, and Halifax doesn't. If Halifax had completed an environmental assessment on an LRT line I'm sure they would have been given the cash.
     
     
  #9189  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 6:47 PM
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I wasn't claiming that Kitchener-Waterloo got preferential treatment (it may or may not have). I was pointing out a problem with per-province funding based on ridership. You brought up Charlottetown; under this funding scheme a small town in Ontario is more likely to get transit funding based on high ridership in Toronto.

K-W is hopefully going to have more ridership after its ~$1B light rail line is put in place. According to your proposed way of allocating funding it sounds like this means that it should be bumped up higher on the federal funding priority list. Is the best project really light rail line #2 in K-W instead of some other improvement in a similar-sized city with no rapid transit at all?

Halifax's transit system is not like GO Transit, it is a mostly urban rather than suburban system. It's just very spartan, and doesn't get a lot of funding. I think there are a lot of problems with how the system is run and the people running it are far too conservative in terms of planning capital projects, so the lack of investment is partly their fault. But I have no idea how neglect from the federal government would improve this situation. I think clear communication from the federal government that they are willing to fund major projects in cities like Halifax, assuming they were well-planned, probably would.
     
     
  #9190  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 7:02 PM
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It really depends what your objective is. The federal government has stated the goal of infrastructure investment was to improve infrastructure to create the conditions for long term economic growth. Not as short term stimulus.

You unlock areas that would grow or grow faster but are constrained. Downtown Toronto is in exactly that situation. Connecting downtown Toronto to Waterloo to try to integrate the clusters is a similar thing.
     
     
  #9191  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 7:43 PM
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Has the TTC's fare box recovery slipped below 70%?
     
     
  #9192  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 7:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post


The management of GO transit at the time (and still, to some extent) did not really want to change this operating culture, so when they received money, they used it to buy more cars to lengthen existing trainsets from 10 to 12 cars and expand parking lots. But they still ran the same number of trains in the same patterns and catered to the same customer base. It wasn't until recently that they began to draw up big plans to turn GO from a rush-hour-only, downtown-only commuter service to something more akin to a transit system, providing round-the-clock mobility throughout the region.

That's not entirely on point. GO leased track time and pretty much jumped at any chance to add another train set. Metrolinx has spent well over a billion dollars to negotiate the purchase of these lines as they become available and has spent even more to upgrade them to standards that allows for all day service. GO management never had the money to accomplish this.
     
     
  #9193  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
That's not entirely on point. GO leased track time and pretty much jumped at any chance to add another train set. Metrolinx has spent well over a billion dollars to negotiate the purchase of these lines as they become available and has spent even more to upgrade them to standards that allows for all day service. GO management never had the money to accomplish this.
All true, but this is a much more recent (last 10 years) phenomenon. Also, back then, when GO added a train set, it would use it to run an additional rush hour run, but otherwise have the train set sitting in the yard during the middle of the day.

I applaud Metrolinx for slowly changing the operational culture at GO. I know it doesn't come easy or quickly, and changing the infrastructure is expensive and time-consuming. Some lines will never be all day 2 way simply because the freight operator (notably CP on the Milton line) will continue to be stubborn.

At the same time, you have to admit that some of the old commuter train culture still persists. Metrolinx has owned the Stouffville line for years but still runs the same rush hour-only service. They're incrementally double tracking the line to get all day 2 way service, but, in the meantime, they could probably run a service at least to Unionville, and build a passing track midway to enable 2 way service. If capacity at Union is currently the limiting factor, they could at least run a shuttle to Scarborough GO timed to connect with Lakeshore East runs.
     
     
  #9194  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2016, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
This probably doesn't include capital costs but to give you one example I know of, Halifax's transit farebox recovery rate is about 70 percent
It's 40% according to this document.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
Has the TTC's fare box recovery slipped below 70%?
According to TTC's way of calculating it, its 68.6%

Last edited by nname; Dec 13, 2016 at 9:59 PM.
     
     
  #9195  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2016, 4:55 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
All true, but this is a much more recent (last 10 years) phenomenon. Also, back then, when GO added a train set, it would use it to run an additional rush hour run, but otherwise have the train set sitting in the yard during the middle of the day.

I applaud Metrolinx for slowly changing the operational culture at GO. I know it doesn't come easy or quickly, and changing the infrastructure is expensive and time-consuming. Some lines will never be all day 2 way simply because the freight operator (notably CP on the Milton line) will continue to be stubborn.

At the same time, you have to admit that some of the old commuter train culture still persists. Metrolinx has owned the Stouffville line for years but still runs the same rush hour-only service. They're incrementally double tracking the line to get all day 2 way service, but, in the meantime, they could probably run a service at least to Unionville, and build a passing track midway to enable 2 way service. If capacity at Union is currently the limiting factor, they could at least run a shuttle to Scarborough GO timed to connect with Lakeshore East runs.
Upgrades to the Stouffville line would benefit me directly so I've been watching developments pretty closely. Double tracking on this line is happening in two phases. The first is expected to be complete in 2017 and phase 2 will start construction in early 2017. All day service is apparently going to start for weekdays in 2017-18 and weekends in 2018-19.

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The structural adjustment of the 90s is not an illustrative example to look at of how any party would act now. Given the circumstances, there were huge cuts all over the country done by governments of very different ideological stripes.
The thing is, you don't have to go back to the 90s to find the PCs' hostility to transit and Toronto in general. You just have to look at the last election, when they wanted to reduce transit spending and increase highway spending, with overall infrastructure money being directed away from Toronto. The regressive populist trends that gave us Mike Harris were also responsible for Rob Ford. In the last week or two Patrick Brown has been trying to meddle with Toronto's ability to charge tolls on city highways. The fears of a PC government slashing transit investment and being hostile to Toronto are well founded.
     
     
  #9196  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2016, 4:17 PM
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Bombardier may be able to deliver 3 of the new super-long streetcars before the end of this year, so within the next 2 weeks. If they do, then it is possible they will be able to deliver 47 as promised for 2017, which would be awesome. As it stands now they still have to deliver 232 of the new streetcars with the extension included.
     
     
  #9197  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2016, 1:45 AM
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I hope you're right.


There's nothing about a dictionary definition that disqualifies it from being just as valid as a longer, not so well written encyclopedia article. Quantity does not equal quality. Even in a short dictionary definition, some of them manage to say that there can be non-rail based rapid transit systems. The number of words isn't relevant.
It isn't about the quantity, it's about role they fill and the purpose they each serve. There's noting stopping a dictionary from having accurate information about a topic, but with its role being to provide a superficial meaning of the word rather than the deeper meaning of the subject, it will naturally put more emphasis into one over the other. But even if one were to put equal weight in dictionaries and encyclopedias, when there is contradictory information between them it's common to go with the most prevalent. Especially considering most dictionaries agree with the encyclopedias.

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You may want to read what I wrote again. My position hasn't changed at all. I was merely casting doubt on your rule about frequencies, which you're presenting as authoritative but isn't mentioned at all in the definitions you keep touting.
I don't have any "rule" about frequencies, I have only observations on how countless rail transit services actually operate, from taking the time over many years and looking them up. Having an article to summarize something is useful if you don't wish to do the research yourself, but not having it is irrelevant if you do.

But yes, your position has clearly changed, because when you wrote that previous response you clearly conceded that the systems we were discussing weren't metro systems and were simply suggesting that they should be called RT systems since you didn't realise that there wasn't a difference between the terms:
Quote:
Hold on, the goalposts are moving here. The discussion isn't whether or not GO will become a metro system, but whether it will become a rapid transit system. The latter tends to be more loosely defined than the former.
The term "goalposts are moving" very clearly says you weren't aiming to show the upgrades would make it a metro system.

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lol...Desperate? Prestigious? If there were a passive aggressive Olympics you'd be taking home the gold medal for this post.
For no reason other than how accurate it is. You don't see anyone desperately trying to insist that commuter or suburban rail systems that have been upgraded to RT level characteristics and frequencies should still be called commuter or suburban rail. Or insisting a light rail system with a higher than average level of grade separation should still be classified as light rail. But you see people constantly trying to have more and more things classified as rapid transit. If it was just a matter of not wanting definitions that are too rigid, you'd see it going equally both ways.
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  #9198  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2016, 2:35 PM
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Happy City St. John's (our civic engagement organization, which has a heavy focus on urbanity and the sorts of things SSPers love) compared New Year's Eve public transit in a few "comparable" cities.

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  #9199  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2016, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
But yes, your position has clearly changed, because when you wrote that previous response you clearly conceded that the systems we were discussing weren't metro systems and were simply suggesting that they should be called RT systems since you didn't realise that there wasn't a difference between the terms:
Still insisting that they're always one and the same are you? I've already shown you that that's not always the case. Rapid transit is not only defined more broadly than metro by dictionaries and encyclopedias, but also by the engineers and planners who design the damn things. Feel free to stick to your overly rigid definitions if you want, just don't be surprised when people correct you.
     
     
  #9200  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2017, 1:37 AM
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Not that special, but a little interesting link with some Canadian cities included.
     
     
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