Highways in Canada

[wave46]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

How to redraw it would be to look at all county roads and provincial highways and renumber as follows:

2 - 399: Kings' highways
* The oldest/most important southern highways would get the lowest numbers for the most part. Generally, lower number highways would be provincial in purpose, while higher numbers (especially 100s and 200s) would be regional or local in purpose. 300s would be entirely in northern Ontario and would replace all northern primary highways except for 11, 17 and the 400-series.

400 - 499: Controlled-access highways (as they are now)

500 - 999: Secondary and tertiary highways
* These would be local in purpose for the most part. 500s and 600s could be in northern Ontario to avoid renumbering, or a NW/NE breakdown. 700s would be in eastern Ontario, 800s in the Golden Horseshoe and 900s in southwestern Ontario.

From a pragmatic point of view this is a nightmare. I am usually one for order and logic, but the logistical nightmare of doing this would boggle the mind.

There are certain times when an organizational system by region benefits an idea, for instance: a postal code system aiding in the delivery of packages. This is not one of those times. I don't care that a 900-series highway is SW Ontario - that is irrelevant to travel for me as a motorist.

If I had a blank slate, the optimal solution would be to design a system so there is no overlap between number sets by levels of government and that the numbering is consistent to each roadway. The province would get first kick at reserved numbers (say 1-199 & 400-499), the county/regional/district government would get 200-399, 500-whatever.

Most importantly, I would require counties/regions to coordinate roadway numbers - so that Wellington County 18 when it meets Dufferin county stays numbered "18" as opposed to changing to Dufferin County 3 on the same roadway.

[Acajack]

Quebec has a very logical highway numbering system as outlined in this post:

http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5940984&postcount=1461

It's roughly based on the American Interstate numbering scheme with highway numbers increasing from west to east and from south to north. But Quebec applies it to the entire highway system including secondary and tertiary highways.

It could be though that Quebec's geography allows it to do this, whereas Ontario's does not.

EDIT: Another thing is that the third tier of highways has numbers in the 200s south of the St. Lawrence (and its logical extension), and in the 300s north of the St. Lawrence (and logical extension).

If I hear about Route XXX in Quebec, even if I've never heard of it, I've often got a pretty good idea of which general region it's in just by the number.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec has a very logical highway numbering system as outlined in this post:

http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5940984&postcount=1461

It's roughly based on the American Interstate numbering scheme with highway numbers increasing from west to east and from south to north. But Quebec applies it to the entire highway system including secondary and tertiary highways.

It could be though that Quebec's geography allows it to do this, whereas Ontario's does not.

EDIT: Another thing is that the third tier of highways has numbers in the 200s south of the St. Lawrence (and its logical extension), and in the 300s north of the St. Lawrence (and logical extension).

If I hear about Route XXX in Quebec, even if I've never heard of it, I've got a pretty good idea of which general region it's in just by the number.

Does Quebec have an equivalent system to the county system in Ontario?

That seems to be the issue Ontario has - two levels of government have built roads/highways (each county with its own numbering system, in addition to the province) whereas in most provinces, the province has constructed most of the network and numbered them accordingly, save for small side roads. Thus, Ontario has a confusingly numbered system - lots of duplicate numbered roads.

I think something similar to this exists in many US states.

As for numbering the highway by area - I guess there might be an advantage to it, but I think it's a minor one. People tend to think in terms of origin and destination and what highways they need to get from point A to point B, regardless of the numbering convention.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by wave46

Does Quebec have an equivalent system to the county system in Ontario?

That seems to be the issue Ontario has - two levels of government have built roads/highways (each county with its own numbering system, in addition to the province) whereas in most provinces, the province has constructed most of the network and numbered them accordingly, save for small side roads. Thus, Ontario has a confusingly numbered system - lots of duplicate numbered roads.

I think something similar to this exists in many US states.

As for numbering the highway by area - I guess there might be an advantage to it, but I think it's a minor one. People tend to think in terms of origin and destination and what highways they need to get from point A to point B, regardless of the numbering convention.

It is worth pointing out that Quebec's current route numbering system came into effect during the 1970s. Before that, Quebec had a really illogically numbered set of highways (Route 11, for example, went north from Montreal to Gatineau via Mount Laurier). So, while I agree, renumbering Ontario's county road network would be a huge undertaking, such a thing has been done before.

[swimmer_spe]

This mess in Ontario was caused directly to the downloading in the 1990s. Before then, the road would continue with the number. Now, when it hits a county border, it may change numbers. Renumbering everything in the province would be an expensive nightmare.

The idea that when it gets divided it gets a 4 placed at the beginning of the number makes simple sense. However, it then makes certain highways not make sense - 404 for example is nowhere near highway 4.

Downloading in Ontario has made many highways more unsafe due to the lack of maintenance. The roads do not get repaved as often, or get plowed as good as before. Hopefully they do not do more downloading, and possibly do some uploading.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

As for numbering the highway by area - I guess there might be an advantage to it, but I think it's a minor one. People tend to think in terms of origin and destination and what highways they need to get from point A to point B, regardless of the numbering convention.

Well, that depends. If I am on an autoroute and I just passed an exit for Route 307 and Route 309, and I am looking for Route 315, I know I am going in the right direction.

And if I am looking for the 323 I know it's still some distance away.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

Does Quebec have an equivalent system to the county system in Ontario?

.

Most of Quebec has MRCs (municipalité regionale de comté). These are county governments. Like Ontario, some areas do not have this form of government, especially in larger urban areas.

MRCs may have some planning responsibilities and also can share police and emergency services. To my knowledge they do not have road systems, which are the responsibility of municipalities or the province.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most of Quebec has MRCs (municipalité regionale de comté). These are county governments. Like Ontario, some areas do not have this form of government, especially in larger urban areas.

MRCs may have some planning responsibilities and also can share police and emergency services. To my knowledge they do not have road systems, which are the responsibility of municipalities or the province.

and MRCs are units of government at the supralocal level.

if we take the Montérégie Région. 9 MRCs

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most of Quebec has MRCs (municipalité regionale de comté). These are county governments. Like Ontario, some areas do not have this form of government, especially in larger urban areas.

MRCs may have some planning responsibilities and also can share police and emergency services. To my knowledge they do not have road systems, which are the responsibility of municipalities or the province.

and MRCs are units of government at the supralocal level.

the Montérégie Région.


it can become complicated for an outsider to understand how things work in Quebec.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by wave46

Does Quebec have an equivalent system to the county system in Ontario?

That seems to be the issue Ontario has - two levels of government have built roads/highways (each county with its own numbering system, in addition to the province) whereas in most provinces, the province has constructed most of the network and numbered them accordingly, save for small side roads. Thus, Ontario has a confusingly numbered system - lots of duplicate numbered roads.

I think something similar to this exists in many US states.

As for numbering the highway by area - I guess there might be an advantage to it, but I think it's a minor one. People tend to think in terms of origin and destination and what highways they need to get from point A to point B, regardless of the numbering convention.

If we did a massive reorganization of highway numbers like Quebec did, we could include all the county and regional roads in the numbering scheme. They would still be owned and maintained on a local level but would fit into the wider numbering system, including signs. Like with Quebec, using three digits would leave enough numbers to include all the regional and county roads in the system. While the number of county roads probably numbers in the thousands, that could be drastically reduced by rationalizing the route numbers. Airport Road from Toronto to Stayner for example has three separate numbers when it could be one.

With a system like that, who owns the road would become irrelevant to the travelling public. The numbers would be consistent regardless of who owns the road. This would also solve the problem of a highway disappearing and then reappearing somewhere else, highways seemingly intersecting with themselves, and people not knowing the difference between a county road and a highway. Such a comprehensive renumbering would mean that no highway number is safe, except maybe the 400-series.

[hipster duck]

I like how Quebec's autoroutes are numbered, and how they're a separate system from the highways. Too bad they didn't go full European and insist on blue signs.

It's also kind of cute that all the major even-numbered autoroutes except A-70 can be found somewhere in Montreal. Still waiting for that A-90 to bypass Chibougamau.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This mess in Ontario was caused directly to the downloading in the 1990s. Before then, the road would continue with the number. Now, when it hits a county border, it may change numbers. Renumbering everything in the province would be an expensive nightmare.

The idea that when it gets divided it gets a 4 placed at the beginning of the number makes simple sense. However, it then makes certain highways not make sense - 404 for example is nowhere near highway 4.

Downloading in Ontario has made many highways more unsafe due to the lack of maintenance. The roads do not get repaved as often, or get plowed as good as before. Hopefully they do not do more downloading, and possibly do some uploading.

There are a number of examples where county roads that were never provincial highways changed number as soon as they crossed the adjacent county border. I use the example of where Dufferin County 3 meets Wellington County 18 - there's no clear sign that you've changed jurisdictions, but the road number has changed. That's confusing.

The Province of Ontario added a wrinkle to the whole affair in 1997-98. They either downloaded entire highways (or sections thereof) to various counties. The problem being that if there already was a preexisting county road with the same number as the section of former provincial highway they were gifted with, they would have to assign a new number to the highway, confusing just about everyone.

For instance, Ontario Highway 9 became Dufferin County 109 and Wellington County 109 between Orangeville and Minto, ON. As a bonus, the road is Ontario highway 9 east of Orangeville and west of Minto. If you're unfamiliar with the area, this is absolutely maddening and illogical.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah, it'll cost hundreds of millions without much real utility, especially nowadays with things like GPS/Google Maps/Waze. Also, many people don't navigate by highway numbers but by street name and landmark (eg. "Take Robertson Road, then make a left at the Honda Dealership").

One thing I would like to see more of, though, is a concerted effort to label directions to major destinations, especially within cities.

For example, if you were to arrive at a major intersection, there should be signs that point to: Downtown, Some hospital (or other major institution), the nearest other municipality, and maybe the nearest 400 series highway, preferably all on the same sign board. This is the European approach to wayfinding.

I think highway names are more commonly used in BC than in Ontario; for example people refer to the Coquihalla, the Crowsnest, or the Sea-to-Sky Highway rather than 5, 3, or 99.

Highway names generally haven't caught on for provincial highways in Ontario, except for the Queensway in Ottawa, the North Bay Bypass or Thunder Bay Expressway, and occasionally the Highway of Heroes. Numbers are used almost exclusively for provincial highways, and county road numbers sometimes get used in rural areas, particularly for former provincial highways. In most cases provincial highways don't have any name other than a number, except in urban areas.

Highway numbers also help as a navigation aid for people unfamiliar with an area. While many people use GPS, many others do not.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I like how Quebec's autoroutes are numbered, and how they're a separate system from the highways. Too bad they didn't go full European and insist on blue signs.

It's also kind of cute that all the major even-numbered autoroutes except A-70 can be found somewhere in Montreal. Still waiting for that A-90 to bypass Chibougamau.

I'm not a huge fan of the route number assignment, to be honest. You have A-440 in Laval and A-440 in Quebec City, which is confusing, especially for major highways.

How many people know that even numbered routes run east-west and odd numbered ones north-south? (Other than us highway geeks?) Or that spur routes have and odd number for a prefix?

Then you get the situations in the US, where you have to occasionally assign numbers illogically (see future Interstate 11) because they were never conceived with the original design and have to use a out-of-order assignment. It seems needlessly fussy to me, like grouping highway numbers by region.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by wave46

There are a number of examples where county roads that were never provincial highways changed number as soon as they crossed the adjacent county border. I use the example of where Dufferin County 3 meets Wellington County 18 - there's no clear sign that you've changed jurisdictions, but the road number has changed. That's confusing.

The Province of Ontario added a wrinkle to the whole affair in 1997-98. They either downloaded entire highways (or sections thereof) to various counties. The problem being that if there already was a preexisting county road with the same number as the section of former provincial highway they were gifted with, they would have to assign a new number to the highway, confusing just about everyone.

For instance, Ontario Highway 9 became Dufferin County 109 and Wellington County 109 between Orangeville and Minto, ON. As a bonus, the road is Ontario highway 9 east of Orangeville and west of Minto. If you're unfamiliar with the area, this is absolutely maddening and illogical.

When Highway 417 replaced the section of Highway 17 through Ottawa, Highway 17 was "orphaned" into two separate highways, the 17 through Northern Ontario, and the 17 through Prescott-Russell to the Quebec border. To reduce the confusion of having two apparently separate highways numbered as "17", the City of Ottawa chose to renumber their section of the eastern one as "174" instead... but Prescott-Russell did not follow suit! So their section of the highway is still numbered 17. So now it's even more complicated than it was before.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I like how Quebec's autoroutes are numbered, and how they're a separate system from the highways. Too bad they didn't go full European and insist on blue signs.

It's also kind of cute that all the major even-numbered autoroutes except A-70 can be found somewhere in Montreal. Still waiting for that A-90 to bypass Chibougamau.

A few Autoroute in Montreal that we never hear about. (skyscraperpage)

A-640 -North Shore
A-440 -Laval
A-520 -leads to YUL
A-930 -Candiac
A-730 -Saint-Constant
A-530 -Salaberry-de-Valleyfield
A-35 -St-Jean-sur-Richelieu

You have A-440 in Laval and A-440 in Quebec City, which is confusing, especially for major highways.

In Sherbrooke they have A-410 and A-610 , because of A-10 .

it's not confusing, it's a provincial network based on logic.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I think highway names are more commonly used in BC than in Ontario; for example people refer to the Coquihalla, the Crowsnest, or the Sea-to-Sky Highway rather than 5, 3, or 99.

Highway names generally haven't caught on for provincial highways in Ontario, except for the Queensway in Ottawa, the North Bay Bypass or Thunder Bay Expressway, and occasionally the Highway of Heroes. Numbers are used almost exclusively for provincial highways, and county road numbers sometimes get used in rural areas, particularly for former provincial highways. In most cases provincial highways don't have any name other than a number, except in urban areas.

Highway numbers also help as a navigation aid for people unfamiliar with an area. While many people use GPS, many others do not.

You forgot the Granddaddy of named highways in Ontario and the only one that is officially only known by name: the Queen Elizabeth Way.

The Conestoga Parkway is a useful one due to the fact that the numbering on it changes so often on such a short section of highway.

[Innsertnamehere]

all the municipally maintained freeways go by name too, except for 174 in Ottawa. Don Valley Parkway, Allen Road, Gardiner Expressway, Lincoln Alexander Parkway, Red Hill Parkway, etc.

But yea, the Conestoga is probably the only provincial highway that goes by name more often than it goes by number. Almost nobody refers to it as Highway 85 / 8. Probably something to do how it is really a more local access freeway, like the above listed municipal highways. Hanlon Parkway is the same in Guelph, instead of highway 6.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

all the municipally maintained freeways go by name too, except for 174 in Ottawa. Don Valley Parkway, Allen Road, Gardiner Expressway, Lincoln Alexander Parkway, Red Hill Parkway, etc.

But yea, the Conestoga is probably the only provincial highway that goes by name more often than it goes by number. Almost nobody refers to it as Highway 85 / 8. Probably something to do how it is really a more local access freeway, like the above listed municipal highways. Hanlon Parkway is the same in Guelph, instead of highway 6.

The expressway that runs from Orleans in the east of Ottawa to Kanata in the west (most of it provincial Highway 417 but east of St. Laurent it's municipal Highway 174) is still commonly referred to as the Queensway by most people and in traffic reports. Even if almost all of the signs referring to the "Queensway" have been removed, there are still a few of them around. I noticed a large one near the Bayshore mall over the holidays.

"The 417" for the expressway in the heart of Ottawa may be gaining a bit of traction in common parlance, but it's still the Queensway appellation that dominates.

When most people think of the 417, they think of the portion of the highway that's outside the city in Eastern Ontario, especially the portion east of Ottawa going towards Montreal.

[Innsertnamehere]

yea true, don't know how I forgot that. I always have in my mind that the whole thing is the 417 with 174 going into Orleans, but I am also not from Ottawa and only visit occasionally..