Calgary International Airport II

[casper]

Originally Posted by Cage

Your welcome.



My old man worked for AC, both at the airport and at headquarters. He retired as a network schedule manager.

I have done management consulting and corporate finance projects for three Canadian airlines. But I have never pulled a paycheque from an airline.

Mostly I enjoy flying premium cabin for cheap, that requires an intimate and understanding of tariff regulations and airline systems and operating procedures.



TC minimum gate utilization regulations is a mechanism to deter airlines from sitting on gates to prevent competition. The regulation predates common use equipment and goes back to the days of AC, CP, PWA, Nordair, Calm Air, nationair, etc.

Before Arinc muse and the Sita solution, airlines had to hardwire their gate terminals into the mainframe system. This meant that gates would have one terminal for each airline that used the specific gate. Consequently to save time and money, gates were assigned to each airline.

In YEG, AC had four gates in the north wing and CP had 3 gates in the middle followed by 2-3 gates that were assigned to US airlines. However only the gates assigned to AC and CP would have a terminal to access the Departure Control Systems. The US airline Out stations would not have DCS access.

Let's say a new domestic airline wants to start service out of YEG. Each of CP and AC have 15-18 flights per day, but AC has one more gate. Under the TC formula for gate use, AC would have give up one gate to the new entrant because they were below minimum standards for gate use. Alternately, AC increase the number of daily flights to meet minimum atac standards and thus prevent the new entrant from gain access to prime gate locations.

Cage - Thanks for the insight. Interesting perspective.

That allocation of gates to airlines and predatory gate sitting behaviour sounds like how most of the older airport terminals in the US still operate today.

.

[Tobuz]

Really interesting article about the creation of the wayfinding signage in the new terminal!

The wayfinding in the new building is definitely a positive. I really think they nailed that part ... a lot of the wayfinding in the old/domestic terminal is noticeably more amateur in its design... spelling errors on French signs, incorrect (overuse) of capitalization, and general jumbliness! In the ITB, meanwhile, it's pretty slick and professional.

Here's the article:

The Science Behind the Signs: Wayfinding in YYC's New International Terminal | SkyriseCities

https://t.co/uEGGXldgox

And note the map of the future YYC in the article ... drawn to include concourses F and G!!

[hoboman27]

Originally Posted by Tobuz

Really interesting article about the creation of the wayfinding signage in the new terminal!

The wayfinding in the new building is definitely a positive. I really think they nailed that part ... a lot of the wayfinding in the old/domestic terminal is noticeably more amateur in its design... spelling errors on French signs, incorrect (overuse) of capitalization, and general jumbliness! In the ITB, meanwhile, it's pretty slick and professional.

Here's the article:

The Science Behind the Signs: Wayfinding in YYC's New International Terminal | SkyriseCities

https://t.co/uEGGXldgox

And note the map of the future YYC in the article ... drawn to include concourses F and G!!

I thought you were really unhappy with the signage, or was it specifically the ones that connects the 2 terminals. I've personally heard issues with the signage in that area.

[Tobuz]

Originally Posted by hoboman27

I thought you were really unhappy with the signage, or was it specifically the ones that connects the 2 terminals. I've personally heard issues with the signage in that area.

Me? Nope!

I pointed out earlier that it's ridiculous for YYC to try to make CTG work by posting instructional signs. But that's a totally different beast than wayfinding.

Signs in an airport (or any big public space) need to work for a "pull" of information. Ie when I'm trying to find something, the signage easily and intuitively guides me. I think it works really well in concourse E. The signage is really clean and concise.

The problem I mentioned earlier is that YYC is now trying to use signs for a "push" of information. That rarely works. Human nature is that people won't read (or even notice) signs unless they're trying to find something. So the CTG instructional signs will largely fade into the background and go unnoticed by most people.

Wayfinding signage: big thumbs up
Instructional signage: pointless!

[RyLucky]

Thanks cage for your insight.

I wonder how these things might change one day. Airports are institutions that grew out of WWII and the cold war that followed. As security becomes increasingly standardized in the long term, and "postnationalism" expands (despite recent trends) maybe we'll see reimagining of airport layout. Fortunately our new terminal is fairly flexible.

[GORDBO]

[QUOTE=Denscity;7657437]Wow that's crazy serious!! And the fact that WestJet is basically "Air Calgary" makes it even crazier!




Whenever we [ 2 adults,2kids] travel from Winnipeg to Kelowna on Westjet. We avoid Calgary at all costs now , we will transfer either in Edmonton or Vancouver and double back.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by casper

On another note, in the photos of the AC 777 landing in the background there are a series of parked aircraft. I think a number of those have been there for years. Wonder what the story is behind them. Perhaps similar to the old Canadian Folkers jets at YXE. They just sit there collecting dust.

I have taken a number of pictures of that spot over the years, it seems to be a fairly transient collection. The Fokker without engines appears to be the only long-term resident. The last picture I took there had about half a dozen BAE-146s, the solitary Fokker and four CRJs.

[SpongeG]

'It just doesn't work for us': WestJet on new YYC international terminal
Airline says it was forced to hire 225 employees to service new terminal because it’s so far away

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/westjet-yyc-terminal-complaints-1.3908218

[Tobuz]

[QUOTE=GORDBO;7660649]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Wow that's crazy serious!! And the fact that WestJet is basically "Air Calgary" makes it even crazier!




Whenever we [ 2 adults,2kids] travel from Winnipeg to Kelowna on Westjet. We avoid Calgary at all costs now , we will transfer either in Edmonton or Vancouver and double back.

Why's that?

A domestic-to-domestic connection on WestJet is pretty easy and seamless. Flights arrive and depart from the exact same concourse. Winnipeg to Kelowna via YYC is easy peasy.

(WestJet's complaining is about the distance for domestic-US and domestic-intl connections.)

[Cage]

[QUOTE=Tobuz;7660876]

Originally Posted by GORDBO

Why's that?

A domestic-to-domestic connection on WestJet is pretty easy and seamless. Flights arrive and depart from the exact same concourse. Winnipeg to Kelowna via YYC is easy peasy.

(WestJet's complaining is about the distance for domestic-US and domestic-intl connections.)

Yesterday there were WS flights leaving or arriving from both YWG and YLW and using gates C70-73. That is part of WS problem, their schedulers insist on using the swing gates and therefore entire 737s must use the YYC link to either get to the aircraft or get to bag claim.

For the Denscity family connection, they would have to arrive from YWG to gate 72, take the YYC link to A concourse, then hop onto an encore flight from the A1-6 gates.

[sammyd]

[QUOTE=GORDBO;7660649]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Wow that's crazy serious!! And the fact that WestJet is basically "Air Calgary" makes it even crazier!




Whenever we [ 2 adults,2kids] travel from Winnipeg to Kelowna on Westjet. We avoid Calgary at all costs now , we will transfer either in Edmonton or Vancouver and double back.

How is that related to the International terminal?

[mytwocents]

I've read and heard lot's of complaints about having to walk through the duty free before getting to your gate. Every airport I've been to in Australia does this so I don't really see what the big deal is.

[jmt18325]

I know they do the same thing in Peurto Vallarta, and I can't remember if they did the same thing in Athens - I want to say yes, but I can't be sure.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

I know they do the same thing in Peurto Vallarta, and I can't remember if they did the same thing in Athens - I want to say yes, but I can't be sure.

Cancun as well.

[Denscity]

[QUOTE=sammyd;7661025]

Originally Posted by GORDBO

How is that related to the International terminal?

The second part of the quote isn't mine. I'm just the "crazy" guy.

[McMurph]

I've heard a few complaints about the walk-through duty free as well. I agree that it is irritating, but I accept that it was inevitable. In some ways it's like the call-to-gate system. They're both conspicuous and irritating changes from what we had but both either are or will likely become the norm over time. YYC is being beat up for being an early adopter of designs that are a bit too transparently self-serving and not particularly passenger-centric.

[CalgaryCheese]

Merry Christmas everyone!

First time going through the new terminal...lots of interesting things I noticed.

-The check-in hall looks nice and feels open. However, the numbering system is a bit confusing as they don't seem to line up with the check-in desks if that makes any sense. For example, "check-in #13" is actually just a pillar in an area of benches.

-Personally, I like the CATSA Plus system. I didn't myself notice the line moving any faster than at a regular security checkpoint, but it was nice to not feel rushed and have the bins right underneath you ready to go.

-Call-to-gate seemed to work okay...most people seemed to get how it worked and I saw very few people sitting by the gates and most people in the central lounge. (I flew out of the D gates). However, the lounge itself was kind of disappointing. There wasn't that many dining options, and it just felt kind of small imo.

-On the way back, customs felt like a BIG fustercluck. The signage for which line to line up in absolutely did not line up with the lines at all, and the white hat volunteers were the only thing preventing everybody lining up in the wrong place. Also, the layout for the ABC kiosks were really not intuitive...after completeing your work at the kiosk, you had to go backwards AWAY from the exit and around the foreign passports line to get in line to exit. I arrived at a relatively quiet time, but had this been a busier time I could understand why things might get chaotic here

-Aesthetically, the customs hall is...bland...really bland...the walls were white, the ceilings were white, the floors were white...the only colour was from the signage and an awkwardly out-of-place Canadian flag near the exit.

-The baggage claim area was quite nice in my opinion. It felt decently large and open, and had a nice "big airport" kind of feel. Personally, I found it aesthetically pleasing.

-The connections centre felt really out-of-place. I knew it wasn't included in the original design, but it looked way more like an afterthought than I could have expected.

Overall, I think it's better than what we had before the new terminal, but it absolutely was not built up to its full potential. The customs hall and departures central lounge were the two sore spots for me. It's a wonderful building, but it wasn't built to what it could have been, and that's a shame.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by mytwocents

I've read and heard lot's of complaints about having to walk through the duty free before getting to your gate. Every airport I've been to in Australia does this so I don't really see what the big deal is.

The big deal about YYC duty free area in transborder concourse.
(1) checkout stands are in the middle of the exit walk way. When the duty free checkout gets a line, some other travellers think it's yet another line up and makes it hard for non purchasing travellers to exit the area.
(2) the duty free customer service clerks attempt to stop and interact pax as they are forced to walk thru the store. While everyone recognizes that the clerks have a job to do, they are delaying pax again after having delays at pre-board security and customs.
(3) the clerks do not have any basic information about the terminal, where to eat, location of gates, etc. This aggravates travellers who are unfamiliar wth the terminal (with the new terminal is just about everyone is unfamiliar).
(4) the pathway thru duty free is narrow so it is difficult to pass a slower traveller immediately infront if you.

Overall the biggest annoyance is being forced through a retail area when your primary purpose is air travel.

[cyeg66]

Originally Posted by Cage

The big deal about YYC duty free area in transborder concourse.
(1) checkout stands are in the middle of the exit walk way. When the duty free checkout gets a line, some other travellers think it's yet another line up and makes it hard for non purchasing travellers to exit the area.
(2) the duty free customer service clerks attempt to stop and interact pax as they are forced to walk thru the store. While everyone recognizes that the clerks have a job to do, they are delaying pax again after having delays at pre-board security and customs.
(3) the clerks do not have any basic information about the terminal, where to eat, location of gates, etc. This aggravates travellers who are unfamiliar wth the terminal (with the new terminal is just about everyone is unfamiliar).
(4) the pathway thru duty free is narrow so it is difficult to pass a slower traveller immediately infront if you.

Overall the biggest annoyance is being forced through a retail area when your primary purpose is air travel.

I haven't been through there yet but I know I will eventually. Just reading this gets my blood pressure moving in an upward trajectory. In comparison to YEG's duty free, in which I also get a sense of being squeezed slightly but not too badly, is it better or worse (knowing there's more than double the amount of people passing thru its aisles)? I'm interested in what you'd have to say, Cage.

As opposed to YEG, which other than having the worst baggage handling of any Canadian airport by a country mile, works fairly well as an airport, this just sounds to me like one of many "new" choke points being foisted upon YYC passengers, as though the CAA seems to forget that they're there primarily as airline passengers (you know, that whole getting from point A to B kind). Why make it simple when we could squeeeeeeeze a few more bucks out of them through a calculated list of irritants and annoyances? It's as if they know that no matter how bad the experience may be, people will continue to fly in grands nombres, and no holds are being barred to support their balance sheet. Doesn't look good if you 'axe' me...

[Tobuz]

An interesting - and pretty sad - Twitter rant at YYC about the new terminal earlier today (Tuesday 12/27).

The author is from San Ramon, CA -- vacationing here (presumably Banff) with his family. Their YYC experience was far from a nice wrap-up to their Christmas vacation.

This rant was apparently composed and sent while waiting for their flight home (I assume it was UA 5954 departing from E87) this afternoon. You really can't fault him for any of his comments. They're all accurate and, sadly, fair.

As a proud Calgarian, this is really getting to be disappointing and embarrassing. Seeing something like this from a visitor to our city ... grrrr.

And I don't think YYCAA's official line of "people will eventually get used to the new terminal" does much to help people like this who are infrequent (or once-in-a-lifetime) visitors to Calgary.



On his point # 2, I can't recall if that's been discussed here yet. But the terminal has been operation for a full two months, and the electronic airline signs outside the building still do not match up with the airline positions inside the check-in hall. It's a relatively minor issue compared to the other problems in the building, but also it seems like it should be an easy one to fix, no?? Make the first couple of signs say AC (and only AC), because that's where AC is. Then the next sign shows WS. And so on all the way down the sidewalk until you get to UA and AS at the very far end.

(Today, every single sign along the full length of the building flashes the logo for every single airline. Hardly useful when getting dropped off at the new terminal or trying to find your way to your check-in location.)

And thank goodness for the ol' White Hat volunteer who gave this family their one nice experience in the new terminal!