Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

In my opinion, Phase 3 of LRT should include a line running under Bank Street from Parliament to Billings Bridge and also another line going along Rideau to St-Laurent/Montfort + Otrain to Gatineau
That would really make LRT/O-Train network attractive to support transit within the Greenbelt (where it is most needed)

The eastern part of that has to be the priority. That's where transit is failing hardest.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

A Bank Street subway should connect to the surface line to be built to the south end so that we can collect all the suburban passengers as well.

Eventually yes. These things need to be built in stages. You have to start somewhere and have a plan to grow.

Personally I don't see why LRT (surface or otherwise) is on the radar outside of the Greenbelt (south, east or west). That money should be redirected to lines that will serve a higher percentage of the population. People living outside the greenbelt will use lines inside, but people inside won't use line outside.

This would leave the Trillium Line as the student train that it is today. No need to double track at that point.

The Trillium line is best suited a student line and downtown bypass line (not much different than the blue line in Montreal). It will also serve the new LeBreton Flats development.

[McC]

Please use the futures or the fantasies threads for this, thanks.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

In my opinion, Phase 3 of LRT should include a line running under Bank Street from Parliament to Billings Bridge and also another line going along Rideau to St-Laurent/Montfort + Otrain to Gatineau
That would really make LRT/O-Train network attractive to support transit within the Greenbelt (where it is most needed)

I would say that these should be the eastern and southern parts of Stage 2 (and stage 3). Stages as follows:

Stage 2: Western extension to Lincoln Fields and Tunnel from Rideau to Vanier Pkwy.
Stage 3: Vanier Parkway to St. Laurent and Tunnel from Queen St to north Landsdown.
Stage 4: Landsdown to Billings Bridge and St. Laurent to Blair Rd (not station)

If Riverside South really needs a better transit route, an at grade transitway extension would be inexpensive and better serve them than an LRT extension. Maybe not as nice as a train, but with a population of 10k, they don't need a system to transport over 4000 people an hour.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

In a densely-built, mixed-used, old-urban neighbourhood? Closer than three or four kilometres, for starters.

All three of those cities have way more rapid transit in their older urban portions than Ottawa does, or than Ottawa will at any time in the next century.

They have built urban transit systems. Ottawa is building essentially a suburban one, and then more suburban portions tacked onto it.

Yes, they are, but not in urban parts of the city, only in suburban ones, or to bring suburbanites to their jobs in the CBD and home again.

Ottawa is not building mass transit for its urban core, and has no plans to do so. The urban core has to make due with crappy and degrading bus service, with nothing on the books to improve that service, and several things already in the works to make crappy downtown local transit even worse.

Yup, you are a whiner.

Lets look at the TTC. Lets ignore street running Streetcars, as they are stuck in traffic with the buses. The ones that run in their own ROW, we will compare.

We are also going to only look at the old City of Toronto before Amalgamation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Toronto
and see how many neighborhoods still do not have better than bus, or street running streetcars.

Here is the list:
Cabbagetown
Corktown
Distillery District
East Bayfront
Moss Park
Old Town
Regent Park
Toronto Islands
Trefann Court
The Beaches
Leslieville
Port Lands
Upper Beaches
Allenby
Wanless Park
Wychwood Park
Little Portugal
Fort York neighbourhood
Liberty Village
Little Tibet
Mirvish Village
Parkdale

I count 22 neighbourhoods, just within the old city of Toronto. If I were to expand that to Scarborough, Etobicoke, York, East York and North York, there would be an even longer list.

The Beaches, for example is about 2km from the Bloor line.

Don't these people deserve higher order transit?

I really think you just like to whine.

The purpose of higher order transit is to prevent someone from taking the bus. It is to funnel bus traffic into one corridor.

The LRT will do that.
Some people just won't be happy till they can walk out their door and hop onto it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The purpose of higher order transit is to prevent someone from taking the bus. It is to funnel bus traffic into one corridor.

The LRT will do that.
Some people just won't be happy till they can walk out their door and hop onto it.

I assume you mean "isn't"

Every other post on here seems to demand mass transit for every low density or medium density corridor in the city with a 10 minute bus service. Unless a giant gold deposit is found under city hall it isn't going to happen.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Every other post on here seems to demand mass transit for every low density or medium density corridor in the city with a 10 minute bus service. Unless a giant gold deposit is found under city hall it isn't going to happen.

I think that for the routes identified as the "Frequent network" in the bus plan, 10 minute service all day (15 minutes in the evenings), is a reasonable goal and something the city should be looking to find funding for. For other routes...ya, expecting high frequency is unreasonable.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I assume you mean "isn't"

Every other post on here seems to demand mass transit for every low density or medium density corridor in the city with a 10 minute bus service. Unless a giant gold deposit is found under city hall it isn't going to happen.

The more we focus all our 'gold' on only one corridor, the bigger the 'last mile' problem becomes and the less attractive our transit system becomes.

I have said for years that we need to create a transit grid with high frequency service, whether rail or bus on key routes. This is the way to make our transit system more attractive to more people. In other words, shrink the 'last mile' problem. Are we going to get this?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I assume you mean "isn't"

Every other post on here seems to demand mass transit for every low density or medium density corridor in the city with a 10 minute bus service. Unless a giant gold deposit is found under city hall it isn't going to happen.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The more we focus all our 'gold' on only one corridor, the bigger the 'last mile' problem becomes and the less attractive our transit system becomes.

I have said for years that we need to create a transit grid with high frequency service, whether rail or bus on key routes. This is the way to make our transit system more attractive to more people. In other words, shrink the 'last mile' problem. Are we going to get this?

I did mean "isn't"

The problem with a grid system is, well, you don't have one.

Toronto has it from the farms that used to exist. Ottawa, it seams just put a road any which way they felt.

Name me a street like Yonge, Jane, etc that run north south through the entire core and then continue into the boonies. There aren't any.
Name me a street like Lakeshore, King, Queen, Bloor, etc that run east west unimpeded through the core. They don't exist either.

However, the current Trillium line does a good job at going north south. Maybe not through downtown, but it still works.
The future Confederation line will take care of the east west.

It almost sounds like there is a gripe about the bus system, not the rail system.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The more we focus all our 'gold' on only one corridor, the bigger the 'last mile' problem becomes and the less attractive our transit system becomes.

I have said for years that we need to create a transit grid with high frequency service, whether rail or bus on key routes. This is the way to make our transit system more attractive to more people. In other words, shrink the 'last mile' problem. Are we going to get this?

The last mile problem will never be solved with mass transit. It would cost tens of billions to implement such a system consistently throughout the city.

No city uses mass transit for the last mile except in areas of very high population density (certainly not in Ottawa-type densities).

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I did mean "isn't"

The problem with a grid system is, well, you don't have one.

Toronto has it from the farms that used to exist. Ottawa, it seams just put a road any which way they felt.

Name me a street like Yonge, Jane, etc that run north south through the entire core and then continue into the boonies. There aren't any.
Name me a street like Lakeshore, King, Queen, Bloor, etc that run east west unimpeded through the core. They don't exist either.

However, the current Trillium line does a good job at going north south. Maybe not through downtown, but it still works.
The future Confederation line will take care of the east west.

It almost sounds like there is a gripe about the bus system, not the rail system.

Uh, Bank street runs from Wellington street in downtown to the boonies. In fact, I'm pretty sure it runs all the way to Morrisburg. It's a fair comparison to Yonge street. As for east-west streets, don't forget that Ottawa has the canal and Rideau River as major obstacles. Rideau street, though, runs from the core to the boonies in the east, and Carling ave does the same to the west.

[Cre47]

Queen Elizabeth/POW and Bronson/Airport Parkway are two others that qualify somewhat, Vanier/Riverside just misses it

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Uh, Bank street runs from Wellington street in downtown to the boonies. In fact, I'm pretty sure it runs all the way to Morrisburg. It's a fair comparison to Yonge street. As for east-west streets, don't forget that Ottawa has the canal and Rideau River as major obstacles. Rideau street, though, runs from the core to the boonies in the east, and Carling ave does the same to the west.

Originally Posted by Cre47

Queen Elizabeth/POW and Bronson/Airport Parkway are two others that qualify somewhat, Vanier/Riverside just misses it

Bake ends at Hunt Club, but it kinda wiggles over.

My point was, Toronto and it's suburb are based off the old 1 mile concession/sideroad layout. It makes implementing anything easy.

Ottawa doesn't have that luxury. Some streets do run a decent distance, but most hit a river and stop. North of 417, I could one street that goes east west through the downtown core AND crosses the river AND canal. That is Montreal/Rideau/Wellington/Sir John A. Laurier sort of does. There are no bridges across the river, but there are roads on either side.

Don't forget, the Parliament Buildings are only 2km fro the 417. That is a little less than how farm Bloor is from Union in Toronto.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yup, you are a whiner.

Ad hominem much?

Lets look at the TTC. Lets ignore street running Streetcars, as they are stuck in traffic with the buses.

That's a feature, not a bug.

Some people just won't be happy till they can walk out their door and hop onto it.

I'm not one of them.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The last mile problem will never be solved with mass transit. It would cost tens of billions to implement such a system consistently throughout the city.

No city uses mass transit for the last mile except in areas of very high population density (certainly not in Ottawa-type densities).

No, but how many other cities are using mass transit for virtually none but a handful of ANY miles for trips within the older urban core?

How many are relying on buses running in mixed traffic to serve the most transit-supportive and transit-dependent populations?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Bake ends at Hunt Club, but it kinda wiggles over.

My point was, Toronto and it's suburb are based off the old 1 mile concession/sideroad layout. It makes implementing anything easy.

Ottawa's major street grid is also based on the same 18th-century survey foundation, but with more physical obstacles interfering, and with an unfortunate history of not connecting the dots from one side of an obstacle to another. (Somersets East and West being a classic example.)

[eemy]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Ad hominem much?

I think that might be his point. You have a rather gloomy view of the world.

[Acajack]

Anyone ever heard the old saying that it's the cows who laid out the streets in Ottawa?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

No, but how many other cities are using mass transit for virtually none but a handful of ANY miles for trips within the older urban core?

How many are relying on buses running in mixed traffic to serve the most transit-supportive and transit-dependent populations?

Vancouver: Not all low income, but the large quadrangle bound by Main/Venerables/the Harbour and the trans-canada, anything west of Granville, the large quadrangle bound by Main, the Kingsway and the Vancouver boundary, plus Davie Village and the West end are not particularly close to transit.

Toronto: pick any low-income, high density area of the city. Hardly any of them except the St. James Town are served by mass transit.

Most European cities (where the city centres are for affluent people and tourists and transit-dependent live in crappy suburbs with crappy bus service).

The solution to buses running in mixed traffic is to paint more diamonds on the road, which is billions of dollars cheaper than a subway. The problem is the BIA Lobby and the Bicycle Lobby are stronger than the transit lobby, and transit advocates are too consumed with pipe dreams about subways to focus on the diamond-painting project.

Ottawa's particular problem is that areas of higher density (particularly on the east side) are isolated and not associated with any particular corridor. If Ottawa had 10 Vanier-density neighbourhoods along the Montreal road corridor (the way say Montreal does) then there might be 150k people withing walking distance of the corridor and you could reasonably justify a subway. The problem is that east of Vanier density of Montreal Road alternates between higher density pockets and basically zero density (because of all the former convents, cemeteries, car dealers, institutional land etc), hence there are hundreds of transit users every hour during rush hour instead of the thousands or tens of thousands necessary to make a mass transit system look reasonably full.

[Luker]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Ottawa's major street grid is also based on the same 18th-century survey foundation, but with more physical obstacles interfering, and with an unfortunate history of not connecting the dots from one side of an obstacle to another. (Somersets East and West being a classic example.)

Byron and Gladstone another infamous one..