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  #4061  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 5:22 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Cut and cover could have made the sinkhole much worse.
Could you explain your rationale behind this statement, please?
     
     
  #4062  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Could you explain your rationale behind this statement, please?
Ever dig a hole at the beach?

My thinking is that the earth that they were digging in would have not only caused a sinkhole, but that material would have flowed into the cut and cover area, effectively making things worse.
     
     
  #4063  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2016, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I think in hindsight Rideau definitely should have been cut/cover.

Elsewhere though I think it worked pretty well. I don't think anyone noticed the tunnel between Laurier and the Rideau Centre being mined out (I'm not even sure where the tunnel goes) or from Metcalfe to Sussex.
Between Laurier and Rideau Centre the tunnel goes beneath Waller up to the intersection of Waller & Daly then it curves across the street grid to Rideau just underneath Ogilvie Square where it staightens out until Rideau Station's platform.
     
     
  #4064  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 2:32 AM
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Oh, that makes me think... How do you cut and cover under a canal?
     
     
  #4065  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 2:37 AM
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Oh, that makes me think... How do you cut and cover under a canal?
Drain the canal? They actually did this when building London's Crossrail.
     
     
  #4066  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 2:44 AM
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Drain the canal? They actually did this when building London's Crossrail.
     
     
  #4067  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 1:22 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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The canal is not a technical problem. When they built the current O-Train tunnel under the canal (between Carleton and Carling Stations), I believe they did the work during the winter/early spring, when the canal is normally drained. That tunnel was built using Cut & Cover.

Politically, it would be more difficult to cut the canal now that there is so much fear that any work around the canal could lead to the revocation of the ‘World Heritage’ distinction. (Which is totally ridiculous, of course.)
     
     
  #4068  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 1:39 PM
kevinbottawa kevinbottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Rideau St... what a mess:



Photo by me.
December 3, 2016
Are all those machines on the left going to be there throughout 2017? That would — for Canada150 tourists?
     
     
  #4069  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2016, 3:04 PM
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All that jet grouting equipment should be gone when they finish the tunnel excavation.
     
     
  #4070  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2016, 12:38 PM
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6 months after Rideau Street sinkhole, cause remains unknown
City, Rideau Transit Group carrying out twin probes into costly June 8 road collapse

By Ashley Burke, CBC News
Posted: Dec 06, 2016 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Dec 06, 2016 5:00 AM ET




Six months after a gaping sinkhole suddenly turned one of Ottawa's busiest downtown streets into a chaotic danger zone of hissing gas and gushing, brown water, neither the city nor the light rail construction consortium tunnelling below know what caused the catastrophe.

Both the city and Rideau Transit Group are endeavouring to find out how the June 8 Rideau Street road collapse happened, and the results of their separate investigations should be available in a matter of weeks, according to the city's director of the rail office, Steve Cripps.

Did a city water main rupture, causing the sinkhole, or did the tunnelling work below trigger the collapse, causing the water main rupture? Zeroing in on that answer is key to determining who's on the hook for the multi-million dollar repair bill.

"Completely rebuilding that road and all the services that are in it will be a substantial cost," said Cripps. "It would be millions. It's hard to say if it's tens [of millions]."

New drone video obtained by CBC News offers never-before-seen views of the aftermath of the sinkhole at the centre of the twin investigations.

So far RTG has paid for all of the repairs, including millions of dollars for truckloads of concrete poured to stabilize the area.

According to an incident notification report filed just an hour after the sinkhole occurred — among more than 100 pages of city documents about the sinkhole obtained by CBC News through a municipal access to information request — the water main rupture resulted from the collapse, rather than the reverse.

"At approximately 10:40 am a sinkhole formed at Rideau running tunnel opening on the surface of Rideau St. As a result a water and gas main broke at the corner of Rideau and Sussex," wrote the project's safety administrator Allison Simons and project safety manager Peter Wolters.

But Cripps said that early assessment doesn't carry any weight.

"On the day it happened no one is going to be in the position to assess the cause," said Cripps. "We're six months later and we're still working on it. So I would say it might be just a choice of words at the time."

While RTG has hired an independent company to conduct its investigation into the cause of the sinkhole, the city is using its own experts already on the municipal payroll — the same collection of technical advisers, including tunnel and geotechnical specialists, overseeing the first phase of Ottawa's LRT project.

"They know the project, they know the history of the area, they're very familiar with the soils of the area," said Cripps. "So the city didn't see a need to go independent. It's not something that would compromise their investigation by being associated with the city. They're simply looking at the data and making engineering assessments on what they're seeing."

Cripps said both RTG and the city are covered under the project's insurance plan, however there's no guarantee the insurer will pick up the whole tab for the sinkhole repair. The insurer is also expected to carry out its own investigation.

There are separate bills for fixing the storm sewer, two broken water main valves and other utilities that service nearby businesses, but none of those figures have been released to the city, Cripps said. (Rerouting traffic around the site cost the city $14,662, including overtime and temporary barricades, in the days immediately after the event, records show.)

Rideau Street has been closed to all traffic since mid-October while crews work around the clock to reinforce the ground where the sinkhole occurred so the final 20 metres of the tunnel underneath can be completed.

"Out of a 2.5-kilometre tunnel it's the only area that isn't in fairly solid bedrock," said Cripps. "So it's always been the riskiest part. But once that sinkhole happened it took soil that's been there for 10,000 years and just disturbed it, and loosened it and moved it all around. So now you've got soil that wasn't quite as stable as it was."

The city's goal is to reopen Rideau Street to buses and taxis by Dec. 16, Cripps said.

Until then, investigators continue to pore over extensive amounts of data from the day of the sinkhole and the weeks leading up to it.

"There's thousands of bits of information and they all need to be analyzed," said Cripps. "So it's a huge undertaking."

The investigations into the cause of the sinkhole are expected to be completed by the end of the year, and have not delayed the project's overall completion targets, the city said.

Rideau Transit Group did not make anyone available for an interview.

"The cause of the sinkhole is still under investigation and we have no further information to provide," wrote Peter Lauch, the technical director of RTG in an email to CBC News.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-sinkhole-cause-investigation-1.3882044
     
     
  #4071  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2016, 5:37 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
The canal is not a technical problem. When they built the current O-Train tunnel under the canal (between Carleton and Carling Stations), I believe they did the work during the winter/early spring, when the canal is normally drained. That tunnel was built using Cut & Cover.

Politically, it would be more difficult to cut the canal now that there is so much fear that any work around the canal could lead to the revocation of the ‘World Heritage’ distinction. (Which is totally ridiculous, of course.)
Allow me to again pitch my idea that the "World Heritage" designation of the canal was one of the worst things to have happened to the city, and will be used to back up NIMBYism and anti-ism for decades to come.
     
     
  #4072  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2016, 5:48 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Allow me to again pitch my idea that the "World Heritage" designation of the canal was one of the worst things to have happened to the city, and will be used to back up NIMBYism and anti-ism for decades to come.
Except that it provided some effective and free advertising for the city at an international level. Being dwarfed by neighbouring Toronto and Montreal, this is something that Ottawa desperately needed.
     
     
  #4073  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2016, 8:46 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Allow me to again pitch my idea that the "World Heritage" designation of the canal was one of the worst things to have happened to the city, and will be used to back up NIMBYism and anti-ism for decades to come.
Please help me understand how that designation hurts the city?
     
     
  #4074  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2016, 3:23 AM
SF Thomas SF Thomas is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Please help me understand how that designation hurts the city?
There are a number of extra rules and preservation requirements that go with World Heritage Site status. This adds another layer of red tape and makes it harder for construction projects which involve the canal or occur near it to go ahead.

It is also very difficult to do anything that would involve taking a section of the canal apart (like the cut and cover idea for making the rail tunnel), even if the canal was rebuilt almost exactly the same afterwards.

I don't exactly agree the World Heritage Status was the worst thing that could have happened, there are a lot of benefits (like free tourism advertising) that come with it. Plus anything being done with the canal probably does need extra scrutiny. I can see why someone might think it is a pain to deal with the extra construction and preservation requirements though.
     
     
  #4075  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2016, 4:33 PM
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I think Uhuniau goal in life is to piss us off with his extremist views on urbanism.
     
     
  #4076  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2016, 6:32 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Except that it provided some effective and free advertising for the city at an international level. Being dwarfed by neighbouring Toronto and Montreal, this is something that Ottawa desperately needed.
Those tourists who fly into Toronto still think they are visiting the capital of Canada.

The "advertising" value of the designation was not worth the endless NIMBYist grief it is going to cause for decades to come.
     
     
  #4077  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2016, 6:34 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Please help me understand how that designation hurts the city?
It is a hook onto which a thousand petty NIMBY movements will hang their arguments, along with the old standbys like "traffic", "property values", "the children", "privacy", etc.

Business owner: I'd like to add a funky little rooftop patio overlooking the Rideau Ca—

NIMBY: WORLD HERITAGE SITE! NOPE NOPE NOPE!
     
     
  #4078  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2016, 6:34 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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I think Uhuniau goal in life is to piss us off with his extremist views on urbanism.
Please point out two of those "extremist" views.

Thank you.
     
     
  #4079  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2016, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Please point out two of those "extremist" views.

Thank you.
1. Anything that is green space, plazas or monuments is a waste of space 2. the tunnel will do nothing to improve the accessibility to Sparks. Oh, and of course, 3. the "World Heritage" status of the canal is outright bad. No benefits whatsoever. 4. NIMBYism is all bad. Even NIMBYism, believe it or not, is sometimes warranted.

Being negative all the time is an extreme.

I can't recall you ever saying anything positive about anything.
     
     
  #4080  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2016, 11:45 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
1. Anything that is green space, plazas or monuments is a waste of space 2. the tunnel will do nothing to improve the accessibility to Sparks. Oh, and of course, 3. the "World Heritage" status of the canal is outright bad. No benefits whatsoever. 4. NIMBYism is all bad. Even NIMBYism, believe it or not, is sometimes warranted.

Being negative all the time is an extreme.

I can't recall you ever saying anything positive about anything.
Not all green spaces, plazas, or monuments are wastes of space.

But most of them are, especially the junk green spaces that Ottawa's been building in the post-war period and in the suburbs. And the endless monuments-by-committee are stultifying, dull, anywhereseville place-killers. I'd rather have another Tim Hortons than street-killing, life-sucking, pointless empty space.

Everyone who wants anything to be replaced with space (cf. the debate over the Daly site) should be forced to spend two hours some winter Saturday watching how people use one of the existing pointless open spaces.

(Hint: they don't.)
     
     
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