Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

SoooooAlso, does this mean that all the Canada Line stations will be expanded to their full 50 meters?

Good lord, why take on all that expense until we need to? There's still a ton of extra capacity to be had from simply buying more 2-car trainsets.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also, does this mean that all the Canada Line stations will be expanded to their full 50 meters?

I believe the plan is to max out frequency first. The 11 extra trains will allows the line to run at 2min frequency with 2-car trains, giving 10,000pphpd.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Good lord, why take on all that expense until we need to? There's still a ton of extra capacity to be had from simply buying more 2-car trainsets.

I was actually thinking not to do them all at once, but expand them one or two at a time, especially if there is an opportune moment. So maybe for now just Bridgeport, but when the Broadway Subway is built expand Broadway C-Line station at the same time. Same if the Oakridge development ever gets going.

[dharper]

It may be a bit early to ask, but when is phase 2 planned for?

[LeftCoaster]

Thanks for synthesizing the upgrades SFU. Indeed a small but important step in the right direction.

[rxp]

Originally Posted by dpogue

Yes.



No, there will be an additional 11 2-car Canada Line trains, which likely won't be here for a 3 or 4 years because they need to start a bidding process and find a supplier.

The additional 7 4-car Mark III trains for the Expo Line should be ready in 1.5 to 2 years because they're part of an option on the existing supply contract with Bombardier.

So how many Mark III trains will we end up having?

Does anyone have a breakdown for all trains?
Mark I:
Mark II:
Mark II.5:
Mark III:
C-line:

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by rxp

So how many Mark III trains will we end up having?

Does anyone have a breakdown for all trains?
Mark I:
Mark II:
Mark II.5:
Mark III:
C-line:

SkyTrain rolling stock

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dharper

It may be a bit early to ask, but when is phase 2 planned for?

The three phases are meant to overlap in their improvements. So Phase 1 was approved today, but its implementation will be gradual all the way through to 2026.

However, Phase 2 will be voted on in 2017, and will run from 2018 to 2027. Its highlights include:
-Patullo Bridge Replacement
-Surrey rapid transit
-Broadway rapid transit
-More rail cars and station upgrades on the SkyTrain system
-Further bus expansion
-Further HandyDart expansion
-Further road, walking and cycling expansion

Finally, Phase 3 will be voted on in 2019 and rolled out from 2020-2030. So far all that's included in it on the website is "more bus, rail and HandyDart improvements" and further road, walking and cycling funding for municipalities.

Source: http://tenyearvision.translink.ca/

And since the vote passed today, a dedicated page appeared for Phase 2:

http://tenyearvision.translink.ca/phase-two/

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I was actually thinking not to do them all at once, but expand them one or two at a time, especially if there is an opportune moment. So maybe for now just Bridgeport, but when the Broadway Subway is built expand Broadway C-Line station at the same time. Same if the Oakridge development ever gets going.

The underground Canada Line stations were built with 50M platforms, but there are knock-out walls covering 10M at one end of the platforms.

When a decision is made to use 50 M trains (by adding a third "C" car in the middle of the two-car trains) then the underground stations can have their 10M walls removed to reveal the full-length platforms.

The elevated stations are another story ...

[Metro-One]

Hmm, I wonder what rail would be in phase 3?

Skytrain to Langley, full build out to UBC, and maybe the PoCo extension?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The underground Canada Line stations were built with 50M platforms, but there are knock-out walls covering 10M at one end of the platforms.

When a decision is made to use 50 M trains (by adding a third "C" car in the middle of the two-car trains) then the underground stations can have their 10M walls removed to extend the platforms.

The elevated stations are another story ...

I am aware of that, was just thinking we should finalize the station upgrades when the opportunities come our way. I have wondered how the elevated station expansions will be done.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by dharper

It may be a bit early to ask, but when is phase 2 planned for?

Were you the kid who on Boxing Day started counting the days until your Birthday knowing there would be more presents?

let's play with these new toys for a while.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The underground Canada Line stations were built with 50M platforms, but there are knock-out walls covering 10M at one end of the platforms.

When a decision is made to use 50 M trains (by adding a third "C" car in the middle of the two-car trains) then the underground stations can have their 10M walls removed to reveal the full-length platforms.

I thought I read here that this is only true at a few of the major underground stations such as Broadway. At most of the stations the only real concession that's been made is to ensure the track is level and straight so as to facilitate station expansion.

And even at those stations with the extra length, that extra area is only roughed-in and would need to be finished.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Hmm, I wonder what rail would be in phase 3?

Skytrain to Langley, full build out to UBC, and maybe the PoCo extension?

I suspect phase 3 will be the SkyTrain extension to Langley, as well as starting to replace the Mark I vehicles with new Mark III (or Mark IV at that point?) trains.

I don't think we'll see a full extension out to UBC or to PoCo in the plans until mid-2020s, depending on funding and regional growth.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Very happy to hear that this has been approved.

As a refresher, here's the sound-bytes of what it includes:



Incredible that a 10 cent fare increase and $3 measly bucks per household in additional property tax, on average, yields a substantial enhancement for the region, particularly with the SkyTrain fleet expansion and additional levels of service at peak times, particularly for the Canada Line, which is frequently bursting at the seams.

It is sad but funny reading some of the angry comments about them raising taxes and how the people already voted against this. It really does amaze me how people can be so against their best interests and how they can't understand that by spending a little money up front on transit and roads it will actually help strengthen the region economically and potentially save them time commuting (and therefore money too).

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

It is sad but funny reading some of the angry comments about them raising taxes and how the people already voted against this. It really does amaze me how people can be so against their best interests and how they can't understand that by spending a little money up front on transit and roads it will actually help strengthen the region economically and potentially save them time commuting (and therefore money too).

I hate the term "sheeple" but the media really leaves a powerful lasting imprint, and one one that will unfortunately resonate with this generation of millennials and screw us over for years to come. It's strange to think that we have such an array of information yet we seem to be more ignorant and mislead...

A little research reveals that this is nothing to all the "hidden" taxes they are paying on the daily. With this, we at least see what we are getting back in the form of mass transit improvements which has a real trickle down.

[ilikeredheads]

I think they'll only consider station upgrades for Canada Line when they can no longer add any more trains because upgrading the elevated stations may get costly. Currently they are only 6 stations that have 50m platforms: Brighouse, YVR-Airport, Waterfront, VanCity Centre, Yaletown, and Olympic Village. (not sure about Templeton and Sea Island, but since both of these are ground level, it's not a problem) The rest of the underground stations have the 10m reserved, covered by a faux wall, but they are unfinished. The other elevated stations may pose more of a challenge, particularly Bridgeport imo. Bridgeport is sandwiched between 2 switches and it's going to be super tight fit.

Imo, even at 50m the platforms are still not long enough. They should be 60m, at least. However, given that most stations only has 1 flight of stairs and 1 up escalator, I wonder if the stations can even handle the extra foot traffic. Brighouse is already packed during rush hour and that has both up and down escalators.

[Pinion]

Here's a north shore news article. I'm very happy about the seabus and being able to go west along the inlet without a long detour at the quay. I had been working evenings downtown and was taking Evo/car2go home because the Canada line/seabus was useless at 11pm. I'd have a hour and 15 minute public transit commute instead of a 12 minute drive.

Third SeaBus, new B-line in TransLink plan
Mayors’ council agrees on funding for Phase 1 of transit expansion

More frequent SeaBus crossings and a new B-line bus service running from Dundarave to Phibbs Exchange will be coming to the North Shore following a vote in favour of a 10-year transit plan by regional mayors this week.

The TransLink mayors’ council voted unanimously Wednesday to approve the first $2-billion phase of the plan, which will provide additional bus, SeaBus, HandyDart and SkyTrain service across the region.

On the North Shore, that will mean construction of a new SeaBus, the start of 15-minute SeaBus service in off-peak hours beginning in January 2017 and eventual 10-minute service during rush hours after a new SeaBus is built – likely in 2019. The plan will also result in more frequent buses on the 229, 240, 250, 254, 255, 256 and 257 routes as well as a new B-line bus running the length of Marine Drive and Third Street. The B-line is also likely to start in 2019.

Across the region, the plan includes a 10 per cent increase in bus service and a 15 per cent increase in HandyDart service for people with mobility challenges.

Capital projects that will be funded by the plan include construction of a new $34-million SeaBus and $41 million towards Lonsdale and Phibbs bus exchange upgrades, as well as new rail cars for the SkyTrain.

The federal government will pay $370 million towards the transit plan while the province has committed to $246 million. The rest of the $1.3 billion will come from a combination of an increase in property taxes, gas taxes, sale of surplus TransLink properties, an increase in fares and new development cost charges.

Mayors voted for the plan to get badly needed transit improvements started, despite having misgivings about the way the plan is funded, said West Vancouver Mayor Michael Smith.

Smith said he voted for the plan “with my regional hat on,” despite concerns that the plan offers relatively little for West Vancouver residents while West Van taxpayers will pay much more in property tax towards the plan than those in other areas of the Lower Mainland.

“Our residential taxpayers will pay $13.5 million to TransLink in 2017 in property taxes,” he said. “It’s pretty hard to justify that kind of money. We’re paying such a disproportionate percentage.”

TransLink has said the plan will result in the “average” Lower Mainland homeowner seeing a $3 annual increase in property taxes.

But Smith said because the average West Vancouver house is assessed at $3 million, taxpayers there will be paying five times what a homeowner in Maple Ridge with a property worth $600,000 would pay.

Smith said unless the province agrees to allow other ways to raise money – like a vehicle levy or congestion pricing – it’s uncertain how and if the next phase of the 10-year plan, which involves large capital costs, can be accomplished.

Part of the plan includes conducting a study to come up with options for co-ordinated bridge and road tolling options in the Lower Mainland. But the province has final approval on that and has so far not agreed to any road or bridge tolling.

City of North Vancouver Coun. Craig Keating, who cast a vote on behalf of the city, voiced similar concerns.

Keating said while the North Shore will welcome news of a new SeaBus and B-line bus service, senior levels of government still aren’t paying a fair share of the plan.

“We’re talking about $1.3 billion-plus coming entirely from the region,” he said. “There’s a lot of nice shiny photographs of the prime minister and the premier. But this is a lot of heavy lifting being done by regional councils.”

- See more at: http://www.nsnews.com/news/third-seabus-new-b-line-in-translink-plan-1.3178903#sthash.GfAl7hJm.dpuf

I don't understand why they can't start 10 minute sailing sooner though? Do they need four or three? I thought one seabus was retiring when the new one arrives.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I don't understand why they can't start 10 minute sailing sooner though? Do they need four or three? I thought one seanus was retiring when the new one arrives.

The Seabus ran for over three decades with the highest dispatch reliability in the entire transit system despite having no spare vessel. It's a shining testament to the brilliant design of the entire system, which includes an extensive amount of redundancy that allows both vessels and berths to continue operating safely even in the face of pretty significant problems. So it's certainly possible for them to provide 10-minute service with only three vessels.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

I think they'll only consider station upgrades for Canada Line when they can no longer add any more trains because upgrading the elevated stations may get costly. Currently they are only 6 stations that have 50m platforms: Brighouse, YVR-Airport, Waterfront, VanCity Centre, Yaletown, and Olympic Village. (not sure about Templeton and Sea Island, but since both of these are ground level, it's not a problem) The rest of the underground stations have the 10m reserved, covered by a faux wall, but they are unfinished. The other elevated stations may pose more of a challenge, particularly Bridgeport imo. Bridgeport is sandwiched between 2 switches and it's going to be super tight fit.

Imo, even at 50m the platforms are still not long enough. They should be 60m, at least. However, given that most stations only has 1 flight of stairs and 1 up escalator, I wonder if the stations can even handle the extra foot traffic. Brighouse is already packed during rush hour and that has both up and down escalators.

They can do whatever they want if enough money is thrown at it since it's grade separated. If they want to extend the platforms to 200 meters they can, they just have to mine out 140 meters in the underground segments and rebuild the tracks. It doesn't make economic sense to do so, but they can. It makes more sense to actually build a parallel track (eg down Arbutus) to provide relief to the Canada Line when the time comes. The knock-out panels provide for extending the platform lenght to the maximum design. There is still the question of train capacity. Like the actual Skytrain system, it's probably capable of one train every 75 seconds, but where are all those extra trains going to be stored?

Compared to on-street LRT/Street car options where you can't extend the platform because the train will block the intersection. They are decidedly set at the length of the smallest at-grade block length, otherwise they have to close the intersections permanently.

The most likely scenario is that when the Millenium Line is extend to Arbutus, there will be a proposal to turn the Arbutus corridor into another subway to retain the "bike trail" that the surface will ultimately end up as. That will end up going from Grandville Island down Arbutus to Marpole and cross over at Cambie. Then the next Subway ends up being 41st or 49th. It's more likely there will be a Hastings line before there will ever be an Arbutus line.

But more to the point, we are lacking in north-south connections. A Clark/Knight Street would connect everything from a Hastings, Millennium Line all the way down to a possible second crossing into Richmond. The other possibility is through Burnaby down Willingdon to Metrotown and then down Sussex maybe to Big Bend (though not likely since the grade is super-steep once you get to Rumble.)