Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I like Translink as much as the next transit-oriented SSPer, but you have to admit the amount of problems they've had with the Mark IIIs already is pretty troubling.

They've got one month to figure this out, when Evergreen opens they don't have enough trains to operate all lines without utilizing Mark III trains.

So far, there have been four incidents, including the most recent; just two of these incidents could have demonstrably been an actual problem with the Innovia Metro 300 series trains - one being a train time-out on the Skybridge, and the other being a cooling fan failure which is very easily repaired. There are now seven Mark III trains in service and the first one in service has been on the system for over 2 months.

If you ask me that's not really a bad record for the Mark IIIs at all. No new train launch will be without its issues - and the issues ours have faced have been very mild compared to others I've heard about throughout the world, like Montreal Metro's new AZUR trains (all of which had to be pulled from service after 3 months due to major manufacturing issues), or the new E235 series trains on Tokyo's JR Yamanote Line (train #1 was pulled from service on day 1 due to door issues & platform stopping issues, and did not return to service until 4 months later - as of today, almost 1 year later, there's still only that one E235 series train in service)

The attention being directed to the relatively minor Mark III issues is being led by fanatics who are obsessed with the ridiculous idea that the "SkyTrain technology" we use on our transit lines (and the resulting dominance of Bombardier trains on our system) is the root cause of this problem. It is completely overblown.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

So far, there have been four incidents, including the most recent; just two of these incidents could have demonstrably been an actual problem with the Innovia Metro 300 series trains - one being a train time-out on the Skybridge, and the other being a cooling fan failure which is very easily repaired. There are now seven Mark III trains in service and the first one in service has been on the system for over 2 months.

Ask these people complaining if they've ever had to have their car in for a recall. They likely didn't even know there was a recall.

This is the problem with the narrative with the MK III's, they are advanced, computer-controlled, fully automated, and have to integrate with 4 previous generations of rolling stock (two orders of MK I and two orders or MK II) so whatever issues the MKIII has will be minor and trivial because they are more similar to the MKII than the MKII was to the MKI.

Does anyone remember any issues with the MKII's when the Millennium Line opened? Nothing significant enough to mothball them.

And that's the point. If these were not automated vehicles, eg they were being driven by drivers, the drivers would likely cause far longer delays as they are just drivers, not mechanics, and would not be able to fix a train that loses power. It's not like you can get out and push a train. When a conventional LRT fails, at grade, it has the potential to block traffic. When the Skytrain is disabled, all it affects are commuters, and we can typically route around a single disabled train depending where it is on the system. We can't route around multiple disabled trains because they might be disabled in both directions.

[Olden Retreiver]

A national story now.
‘May be dog’s time to go’: SkyTrain staffer purposely didn’t brake for pet on tracks, distraught owners told

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada...for-pet-on-tracks-distraught-owners-told

[aberdeen5698]

I'm as much of a transit fan as anyone, but I have to wonder why they couldn't have just had an attendant run a train manually at slow speed from 29th Ave. to the next station to "flush" the dog out?

I have a feeling that this could have been dealt with better but that Translink simply hasn't run into the issue before, doesn't have an established procedure for how to handle it, and therefore the people stuck with dealing with the problem had to make it up as they went,

If nothing else, bad publicity could motivate them to come up with a better way to deal with it in the future.

[BCPhil]

My real question is why aren't off leash areas in Vancouver fenced in? I admit I haven't been to many, but the ones I've seen in Surrey, New West and Coquitlam all seem to have full fences. What's the point of an off leash area if once off the leash, the dog can just run away? It makes the involvement of Translink so random and arbitrary.

If the dog got spooked by fireworks and ran to the community center and bit a baby's face off, then who would be the bad guy? If the dog ran onto a highway and a motorist stopped their car to try and help, but their stopped car killed a motorcyclist (which happened over ducks in Quebec BTW), then who would be the bad guy?

It's just a story of complete random chance full of hearsay and circumstantial evidence written to tug at the heart strings to manipulate readers. It may as well be a piece of fiction.

[jlousa]

Does no one here know the area?? The off leash section at Trout lake where this happened is one of the most visited dog parks in the whole region. It is 3km from there to 29th ave station where this is said to have happened. The location of the offleash dog park is a non issue here. As someone that has had a dog most of my life I think the way Translink handled it is pretty terrible. I wouldn't have faulted Translink for the death of the dog but the visiting the owners and giving a false account of events is pretty awful.

[red-paladin]

I have to say, if the account that was in the newspaper today turns out to be true, then Translink is to blame for the actual death, and then the false story told to the family.

[ClaytonA]

Interesting, I wonder if this BC Transit pilot will also expand the CNG pilot of Translink's?
Is it still too early, only one year, regarding the fleet maintenance cost differences?

The City of Kamloops in British Columbia was delighted to learn from its Development and Engineering Services Department that the switch to CNG buses has achieved payback for the City in year one, much quicker than the four-year payback period projected in the 2013 business case. Now more CNG buses are planned. ...

In June 2015, the City replaced 25 of Kamloops Transit’s heavy-duty diesel transit buses with CNG buses. Despite significantly lower-than-anticipated diesel prices, the CNG buses have continued to operate at a lower net cost than their diesel counterparts. The operational savings from the first year of running the 25 new CNG buses completely offset the initial increase in debt service fees.

For example, according to a report to the city’s Governing Council, one clear difference between key projections in the 2013 business case and the 2015-2016 actual value was the CNG fleet maintenance cost; the business case projected $0.79/km, but actual costs averaged approximately $0.30/km.

...

http://cutaactu.ca/en/news-media/latest-news/cng-buses-exceed-expectations-kamloops-bc

[ClaytonA]

And then this:

Two years after TransLink last wrote off the idea of battery-powered electric buses for Metro Vancouver, its new CEO is bringing the idea back.

Kevin Desmond told a Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport function that they were introduced during his time in Seattle just before taking the job here in Vancouver.

While here they were dismissed as being too expensive in 2014, Desmond says he’s keen on the idea of a zero-emissions fleet. ...

http://cutaactu.ca/en/news-media/latest-news/translink-take-second-look-fully-electric-buses

I'm still not sold on batteries, the charge time (extra non-revenue), and longevity. Will these things last 10 years plus, or a big additional expense? Does the federal government's carbon tax increasing to $50/t change either the CNG or battery calculation significantly?

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Does no one here know the area?? The off leash section at Trout lake where this happened is one of the most visited dog parks in the whole region. It is 3km from there to 29th ave station where this is said to have happened. The location of the offleash dog park is a non issue here. As someone that has had a dog most of my life I think the way Translink handled it is pretty terrible.

I was thinking the same. The distance between the park and even Nanaimo Station is so great that any risk assessment would of not even considered it an issue. That dog must of been damn spooked to go that far and KEEP going.

I'm as much of a transit fan as anyone, but I have to wonder why they couldn't have just had an attendant run a train manually at slow speed from 29th Ave. to the next station to "flush" the dog out?

Dogs in the track area are the same as people in the track area, no? All trains should technically be stopped in the area until an attendant radios in the guideway is clear again.
Unless they didn't want a dog clogging up the Expo Line for the rest of the night, but that's pretty mortifying if they considered that.

We probably won't find out what happened that night unless Victoria grills them. TransLink is famous for their bad PR and being overly secretive.

[Olden Retreiver]

I don't understand how the trains could even run with a dog on the tracks. Skytrain has beer shut down at times by snowflakes and dry leaves hasn't it?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

And then this:
http://cutaactu.ca/en/news-media/latest-news/translink-take-second-look-fully-electric-buses

I'm still not sold on batteries, the charge time (extra non-revenue), and longevity. Will these things last 10 years plus, or a big additional expense? Does the federal government's carbon tax increasing to $50/t change either the CNG or battery calculation significantly?

Considering no EV exists that has actually end-of-life'd a battery, I'd have to say that the kind of battery needed for a bus would have to be much more sophisticated than one that is used for a laptop or mobile phone. Laptop, Mobile phones, and portable entertainment devices (eg Nintendo 3DS or the tablet for the Wii U) only have 1000 (complete) charge cycles. They are literately only good for about 3 years, and depending on how aggressively you charge it, you may wear it down to 75% capacity within the first year.

Current EV's are only warranted for 5 years or 125,000 miles, except for Tesla which the higher-end models are unlimited.

This is what you want, is a unlimited warranty on the battery for an EV, because that removes the risk of the battery failing before the vehicle life expires. A EV bus would need to last at least as long as a regular bus ( roughly 10-12 years in the US http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/44000/44200/44244/Bus_Lifecycle_Cost_Model_User_s_Guide.pdf , with the warranty on most parts expiring at 7 years.)

Of note, Diesel buses only get 4 MPG, so just about any alternative is worth considering.

Originally Posted by Olden Retreiver

I don't understand how the trains could even run with a dog on the tracks. Skytrain has beer shut down at times by snowflakes and dry leaves hasn't it?

The track would be energized, the dog is far more likely to risk electrocution if the trains are running because the dog can't just jump to the platform height. The trains would have only automatically stopped if the dog was in the track area of the station.

I'm not sure if there was a possible happy ending to this story even if everything could be done short of someone with a tranquilizer 🞵🞵🞵 shooting the dog so the dog would be immobilized. You know eventually what was going to happen, even if the trains were stopped and track de-energized is that the dog would have had a heart attack from being chased and cornered by strangers, or the dog may even turn around and attack someone. I'm sure this isn't the first time an animal has entered the track area, and if you think about it, there are multiple points on the guideway where (eg where it goes between grades) where an animal might be able to jump into the guideway and not get out again.

What bothers me is that whoever had responsibility for trying to get the dog out, seemed to not have enough agency to get the trains to stop and stay stopped. What if it was a child?

If this was a surface LRT, we'd never hear about dogs or children on the tracks, because the driver would never get a chance to react, we'd just hear about a delay and no specifics to not make the media go on a witch hunt. Trains do not stop on a dime, and neither do cars.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

one of the first stories i read about the dog thing said that the trains were stopped, the dog was coxed back onto the platform, and then the trains resumed, then the dog ended up running back on the tracks to be hit.

also, why are people equating a dogs life to a humans life? pets/animals are possessions, people are not. humans are not equal to pets/animals. how long are they supposed to hold up trains for thousands of people because some is in the way? you'd think the dog would move out of the way of some moving mass towards it, though.

but of course, blame TransLink, because that is easy with the media's hate on for them.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

also, why are people equating a dogs life to a humans life? pets/animals are possessions, people are not. humans are not equal to pets/animals. how long are they supposed to hold up trains for thousands of people because some is in the way? you'd think the dog would move out of the way of some moving mass towards it, though.

Not to be "that guy," but a life is a life. In some cases, people value animals more than they would humans - to them, animals are (generally) warmer, more loveable and less dickish or judgemental. It's the same reason why New York City has shut down their subways for hours during three separate cat incidents; sentiment is an important part of the human condition.

Fun fact: the 2013 incident was a municipal election year. The candidate who said he'd have kept the trains running? He lost by almost 50%.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

also, why are people equating a dogs life to a humans life?

Have you never had a pet?

Because they are "furry children" to people who have pets but no children, and they take care of them and usually spend as much money on their dog or cat that they would on a child.

Don't lower the value of a pet by saying it's not human and only property. A pet can not be replaced with another one. That is the difference between a life and property. If my apartment burns down and all my worldly possessions are destroyed, the only property that is irreplaceable are the hard copies of photos and memorability that I am in, someone may or may not have the negatives or digital files to reproduce those photos and yearbooks. If I had a million dollar painting that I truely cherished, insurance would still pay out. But property insurance doesn't pay out for pets. (There is separate insurance you can get for pets.) I'm sure I'd be sad at losing childhood possessions that I kept, but that is something else entirely to lose a pet whom is basically equal to a child or a sibling as part of the family.


And yes, there are people out there who don't see pets as anything but possessions, so they aren't upset enough when their pets die every year (typically people who have fish, hamsters or mice as pets, and just replace them the minute they die.) A large dog is supposed to live at least 10 years, a small dog (like those toy dogs or chihuahua's) can live 20. Cats can live to be 20+, many birds also can live decades. So for many people a long-lived cat or dog being killed is equal to having a child of that age being killed.

[Vantage]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I'm not sure if there was a possible happy ending to this story even if everything could be done short of someone with a tranquilizer 🞵🞵🞵 shooting the dog so the dog would be immobilized. You know eventually what was going to happen, even if the trains were stopped and track de-energized is that the dog would have had a heart attack from being chased and cornered by strangers, or the dog may even turn around and attack someone. I'm sure this isn't the first time an animal has entered the track area, and if you think about it, there are multiple points on the guideway where (eg where it goes between grades) where an animal might be able to jump into the guideway and not get out again.

What bothers me is that whoever had responsibility for trying to get the dog out, seemed to not have enough agency to get the trains to stop and stay stopped. What if it was a child?

If this was a surface LRT, we'd never hear about dogs or children on the tracks, because the driver would never get a chance to react, we'd just hear about a delay and no specifics to not make the media go on a witch hunt. Trains do not stop on a dime, and neither do cars.

Well said. People would've been upset no matter the outcome.

[Kisai]

There are two Translink meetings this month
http://www.translink.ca/en/About-Us/Governance-and-Board/Mayors-Council/Council-Meetings.aspx

November 10th and 23rd

They will be discussing Phase One of the Mayors 10 year plan
http://tenyearvision.translink.ca/have-your-say/

Things to note:

Planning for B-Line from Scott Road to Newton, and B-line down Fraser Highway and three new service areas in Surrey.

B-line down Hastings to SFU, B-line from Lougheed to Maple Ridge/Maple Meadows

B-line down 41st between Metrotown and UBC

Study for B-line between Richmond/Metrotown

[Xrayal]

Open Board-Mayors' Council Meeting Report -Nov 10 2016

http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...joint_board_mayors_report_11_10_2016.pdf

Interesting things that caught my eye:

Burnaby Mountain
• Update the 2011 assessment of a future highcapacity
transit connection between SkyTrain and
Burnaby Mountain campus.
Future rail connection to UBC
• Work with partners to determine how and when to
complete the next phase of rapid transit to the UBC
Point Grey Campus.
»» Undertake a vanpool pilot in 2017 to assess
the potential for an integrated vanpool program
that efficiently increases transportation options
for people working in places that are difficult to
serve by fixed-route transit.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Xrayal

Open Board-Mayors' Council Meeting Report -Nov 10 2016

http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...joint_board_mayors_report_11_10_2016.pdf

Interesting things that caught my eye:

Burnaby Mountain
• Update the 2011 assessment of a future high-capacity transit connection between SkyTrain and Burnaby Mountain campus.

Has the cost-benefit analysis for the gondola improved? If so, darn... I will have just missed it then.

[red-paladin]

I wonder if a PPP deal would work for the gondola since it seemed to have such a good business case? If a company is willing to finance the construction I could see it happening.