Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

What do you mean exactly? Who's they and what would the third branch be?

God damn I sound just like trofirhen

Sorry, 4 new branches.

You would have the split going to Production Way.
Then, you would have the new branches going to Newton, Guildford and Langley.
http://www.surrey.ca/files/LRTMap.pdf

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Sorry, 4 new branches.

You would have the split going to Production Way.
Then, you would have the new branches going to Newton, Guildford and Langley.
http://www.surrey.ca/files/LRTMap.pdf

But do you expect this from a Liberal or an NDP government? Or both?

Also, I'm not so sure even if they went with SkyTrain for all lines that that's how it would go. The frequencies would be way too low for Langley, which will end up with higher passenger traffic.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

But do you expect this from a Liberal or an NDP government? Or both?

Also, I'm not so sure even if they went with SkyTrain for all lines that that's how it would go. The frequencies would be way too low for Langley, which will end up with higher passenger traffic.

I do not expect anything out of any governments. This line is at least 5-10 yeas away from even being announced. In that time, there will be at least 1, possibly 2 or more government changes at the provincial and federal level.

Extending the Surrey line to Langley makes the most sense. The other 2 branches could be LRT, or even a new Skytrain line. Maybe the line gets extended north to the Evergreen Extension of the Millennium line. This would reduce the load on the Expo line and gives the Millennium line a place to go next.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Kisai

And if we let the mayors have their way like they did, we still wouldn't have the Canada Line or the Evergreen line. This is why the province took that away from them, and I'd rather it stay that way as long as the province is promising to keep delivering Subway/Skytrain.

The Socreds ultimately had the vision to pick a smart technology, and the NDP after them not only kept it, but expanded it (Even though it was only through NDP-elected areas.) The Liberals P3P Canada Line project was a bit of a lame-duck of corner cutting but not ultimately awful, while the Evergreen-style extensions are exactly the kind of forward-thinking needed.

The mayors are to blame for simply being too self centred about their own needs. The province is to blame by simply not planning ahead with the funding. The only time the province seems to get involved is when there is an election coming up. This goes for past provincial governments as well.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by cabotp

The mayors are to blame for simply being too self centred about their own needs. The province is to blame by simply not planning ahead with the funding. The only time the province seems to get involved is when there is an election coming up. This goes for past provincial governments as well.

I don't know if I can agree with your notion that the Mayors are to blame or have any measurable blame in where we are at. Other than really Burnaby's Mayor being against anything not build in Burnaby, the majority have been quite supportive of expanding transit regionally not just in Surrey.

What has happened the past 5 years is:

Province: "Ok Mayors come up for a way of funding"
Mayors: "Ok how about This (way A)?"
Province: "Nope, it isn't property tax."
Mayors: "Well what about This (way B)?"
Province: "Nope, it isn't property tax."
Mayors: "Well wtf, you told us to come up with a way but shoot it down if it is anything but property tax... not much of a choice..."
Province: "Lololol ok ok ok... try something else I promise this time"
Mayors: "Well... hmm ok how about an increase to an existing tax? That isn't property tax."
Province: "Sure that sounds goo.... HAHA psych REFERENDUM."
Mayors: "Ef you."

I'm being simplistic but the above is, I think, quite representative of the back and forth between the Mayors in the region (trying to do something) and the Province (doesn't do much... heard they cancelled yet another legislative sitting this Fall?)

So you're spot on that the Province only gets involved in anything when they are up for election. But on the Mayor front I think they have been really trying. Heck they're the only ones that came up with a reasonable regional plan including Broadway Subway, expansion of transit SoF, new B-Lines, better service, etc. etc.

But the Province basically shot it down with one hand while the other hand was saying it was the Mayor's responsibility to come up with the plan. And we could all hear the Mayor's saying "WTF we just did!!!!"

[scryer]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Pointed this out to people at least 3 years ago+. You're the only one paying attention. That's exactly what LRT in Surrey is, pressure on the government to do something. And it is happening as Translink stepped in and is doing the business case now for what should be built down Fraser Hwy, street grade LRT or separated LRT (aka SkyTrain) and we should know the answer to which in the next few months.

Hint, the answer very likely starts with an S and ends with a Train.

As for 104th, that is Surrey's problem as it is entirely 100% within its borders and I don't think the city can expect other cities to contribute. Sure the Broadway Line would technically be entirely in Vancouver but as it is linked up to Millenium it technically is a regional extension.

Also for those of you not in the know, Fraser Hwy and 100th Ave are slated in the next 1-3 years to be widened to 2 travel lanes either direction. That is meant to ease off any burden on 104th as a result of street-level LRT.

King George is already wide enough to not have traffic affected.

I would like to offer a different opinion on the last part... I think that the Fraser Highway and 100th Avenue are going to be Surrey's main automobile arteries no matter what, and that the upgrades/widenings are warranted even without a grade integrated LRT on the table. With the 100th avenue widening, you connect one of Surrey's largest neighbourhoods (Guildford) more conveniently to the city centre; King George already does a beautiful North-South connection all the way to White Rock; lastly the Fraser Highway will connect every other Surrey neighbourhood to the south/east all the way to Langley. Now to me, that looks like a very well connected city just from a driver's perspective.

You said it yourself regarding the 104th line, and I 100% agree with you when it comes to being Surrey's problem. In fact, I think that the Surrey mayor is off her rocker if she thinks that the rest of Metro Vancouver is going to pay for an LRT system that is only going to be used by Surrey residents. And I agree with them. At least with the Evergreen line, it adds onto the system and connects the skytrain system to a city that has never had it before. Reminds me of the time when the skytrain was extended into Surrey from New Westminster. And I'm sure that other metro-Van cities may have wanted some skytrain loving too at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong, someone.

I will make a prediction: Millennium line extension to Arbutus (God, we should just protest to extend to UBC already!!) will be next, followed by the extension of the Expo line to Langley. And then back to the extension to UBC. IMO the expo line extension to Langley will be significantly cheaper than the Millennium line extension because of the fact it would probably all be elevated. The only expensive parts may be the stations depending on how fancy they are.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by scryer

I would like to offer a different opinion on the last part... I think that the Fraser Highway and 100th Avenue are going to be Surrey's main automobile arteries no matter what, and that the upgrades/widenings are warranted even without a grade integrated LRT on the table. With the 100th avenue widening, you connect one of Surrey's largest neighbourhoods (Guildford) more conveniently to the city centre; King George already does a beautiful North-South connection all the way to White Rock; lastly the Fraser Highway will connect every other Surrey neighbourhood to the south/east all the way to Langley. Now to me, that looks like a very well connected city just from a driver's perspective.

You said it yourself regarding the 104th line, and I 100% agree with you when it comes to being Surrey's problem. In fact, I think that the Surrey mayor is off her rocker if she thinks that the rest of Metro Vancouver is going to pay for an LRT system that is only going to be used by Surrey residents. And I agree with them. At least with the Evergreen line, it adds onto the system and connects the skytrain system to a city that has never had it before. Reminds me of the time when the skytrain was extended into Surrey from New Westminster. And I'm sure that other metro-Van cities may have wanted some skytrain loving too at that time. Correct me if I'm wrong, someone.

I will make a prediction: Millennium line extension to Arbutus (God, we should just protest to extend to UBC already!!) will be next, followed by the extension of the Expo line to Langley. And then back to the extension to UBC. IMO the expo line extension to Langley will be significantly cheaper than the Millennium line extension because of the fact it would probably all be elevated. The only expensive parts may be the stations depending on how fancy they are.

Only thing that keeps 104th in my mind as still an major east/west route is the fact that on one end it connects to the SFPR then goes straight through the middle of Surrey Central, then Guildford, then on the other end connects straight to HWY1. So you can go from SFPR through the 2 major centers right onto HWY1 without needing to divert.

That said you're right that for most people in Surrey Central at least that I know (including me), I RARELY go 104th and almost always stick to 100th or 96th when going east/west or Fraser Hwy if not rush hour and ridiculously busy. So you're spot on that they should be widened no matter what and the Fraser Hwy widening started well before LRT was even mentioned, they just haven't finished it through Green Timbers as they want to know what final mode of transit will be built.

[MIPS]

So 34 years later, here's a fancy little news article that discussed the risks and costs that were attributed with building the Expo Line using ALRT instead of light rail.
Take note how damn hard someone from Surrey (I'm going to run a mile with this even though it's likely pure coincidence) was advising against the line for the financial life of everyone.

Then think about how wrong he was.



News article courtesy of The Province

[Bdawe]

The operating costs that Bose projects for the Expo Line in that article are higher than the current operating costs of the entire rail division today, adjusting for inflation

[xd_1771]

Bose was the Mayor when the Expo Line's extension into Surrey was happening in the early '90s, so I guess somewhere in the middle he had a change of heart.

But anyway, usually I respond to the speculations that SkyTrain was (or will be) a hold-back to rapid transit expansion in the region by pointing out that Metro Van has actually lead the country in rapid transit expansion despite the choice of technology/ALRT
(see: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...ada-cities-pembina-study-finds-1.2756496)

We're still building, so clearly, these speculations and claims just don't hold up.

[red-paladin]

Hopefully Translink and the BC, Federal governments see a business case for Skytrain on Fraser Hwy and not an LRT extension. This would be consistent with the same findings for Evergreen and Broadway extensions.

[Metro-One]

Rumor is that surrey will get its LRT L Line, but the extension to Langley will be skytrain. This has been hinted at many times.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Seems logical. The King George/104th dogleg needs to be a new line - rather than two Expo branches, each with agonizing 10-12 minute headways - yet it's too short and not dense enough to justify an underground SkyTrain. Therefore, LRT.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Rumor is that surrey will get its LRT L Line, but the extension to Langley will be skytrain. This has been hinted at many times.

The only issue with keeping the LRT L Line (at least in the interim) is that it won't go all the way to South Surrey/White Rock, which kinda sucks for people who live in those areas, whereas a BRT Line likely would.

[scryer]

Seems logical. The King George/104th dogleg needs to be a new line - rather than two Expo branches, each with agonizing 10-12 minute headways - yet it's too short and not dense enough to justify an underground SkyTrain. Therefore, LRT.

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

The only issue with keeping the LRT L Line (at least in the interim) is that it won't go all the way to South Surrey/White Rock, which kinda sucks for people who live in those areas, whereas a BRT Line likely would.

I would much rather have a seamless BRT system that goes down to White Rock than an LRT system that stops somewhere in South Surrey. People commuting from the south to downtown Surrey don't need to transfer from bus to LRT just to get to downtown when a BRT system could just as effectively move them with less cost.

I strongly think that if Surrey wants LRT then Surrey should pay for it. My reason for saying that is because the LRT system will only connect within Surrey whereas all other Skytrain lines connect multiple municipalities together.

[ilikeredheads]

My problem with Surrey's so called "LRT" is that it's not really a LRT. It's a streetcar, or a tram. It's not grade separated. It shares road space with vehicle traffic. There will be at-grade crossings at EVERY intersections. It will not improve commute time over buses.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by scryer

I strongly think that if Surrey wants LRT then Surrey should pay for it. My reason for saying that is because the LRT system will only connect within Surrey whereas all other Skytrain lines connect multiple municipalities together.

But that's the same logic against the Broadway line - "Why should I pay for a subway that only goes through Vancouver?" We're one city, and everybody should help fund everybody.

That said, yes, the main inter-regional RRT backbone (to Langley, etc) should be purely Skytrain; localized rapid lines can be Skytrain or LRT on a case-by-case basis.

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

My problem with Surrey's so called "LRT" is that it's not really a LRT. It's a streetcar, or a tram. It's not grade separated. It shares road space with vehicle traffic. There will be at-grade crossings at EVERY intersections. It will not improve commute time over buses.

Yup, it's basically the Portland streetcar all over again.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But that's the same logic against the Broadway line - "Why should I pay for a subway that only goes through Vancouver?" We're one city, and everybody should help fund everybody.

That said, yes, the main inter-regional RRT backbone (to Langley, etc) should be purely Skytrain; localized rapid lines can be Skytrain or LRT on a case-by-case basis.



Yup, it's basically the Portland streetcar all over again.

If "Surrey Council" wants its LRT, then take all traffic off 104th and make it a dedicated LRT line and block off all cross streets. Just reroute traffic on other roads. Look at Edmonton's or Calgary's LRT. They have both dedicated and shared traffic. The shared traffic is nothing but a disaster. Cars and trains don't mix... never have, never will.

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But that's the same logic against the Broadway line - "Why should I pay for a subway that only goes through Vancouver?" We're one city, and everybody should help fund everybody.

...

In the business case for Broadway they had a number IIRC that 60% of the daily passengers would be from outside COV boundaries... That said, I agree it is a regional network, just like roads.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

In the business case for Broadway they had a number IIRC that 60% of the daily passengers would be from outside COV boundaries... That said, I agree it is a regional network, just like roads.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir. I'm just trying to nip the municipal infighting in the bud - the problem is Christy Clark, not each other.