Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction - Page 136

officedweller · #**2701** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 9:38 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabotp

...
But for quite some time over the past 30 years. Nothing happened and thus we are having to play catch up.

Sounds like you're thinking Toronto.

We've had relatively consistent expansion.
If Evergreen and Broadway had been built before Canada Line, we'd now be building the Canada Line (or whatever it would be called without an Olympic tie-in)

1985 - Expo Line to New Westminster.
1990 - Extension to Scott Road
1993 - extension to King George
2002 - Millennium Line
2006 - VCC-Clark (delayed)
2009 - Canada Line
2016 - Evergreen Line

red-paladin · #**2702** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 9:50 AM**

I was going to say, just about /everything/ was built in the last 30 years.

cabotp · #**2703** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 12:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

Sounds like you're thinking Toronto.

We've had relatively consistent expansion.
If Evergreen and Broadway had been built before Canada Line, we'd now be building the Canada Line (or whatever it would be called without an Olympic tie-in)

1985 - Expo Line to New Westminster.
1990 - Extension to Scott Road
1993 - extension to King George
2002 - Millennium Line
2006 - VCC-Clark (delayed)
2009 - Canada Line
2016 - Evergreen Line

My wording was probably incorrect. I realize that things were built in the past 30 years. I'm just saying I don't think the lines were built as fast as they should of been. There are gaps in those years where nothing really happened. And most of that time was spent debating whether we needed something or what type of system was needed. It is the constant squabbling that has put us behind. Squabbling in the general public not on this forum.

Migrant_Coconut · #**2704** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 7:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabotp

My wording was probably incorrect. I realize that things were built in the past 30 years. I'm just saying I don't think the lines were built as fast as they should of been. There are gaps in those years where nothing really happened. And most of that time was spent debating whether we needed something or what type of system was needed. It is the constant squabbling that has put us behind. Squabbling in the general public not on this forum.

Well, how fast should we be building them? Even before they begin construction, rapid transit lines require proposals, studies, designs, contractors, consultations, funding, approval... and all that takes time to put together. Even major cities like London, Paris, Hong Kong, and Singapore can only manage one line and a few stations every 3-5 years.

swimmer_spe · #**2705** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 7:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Well, how fast should we be building them? Rapid transit needs proposals, studies, designs, contractors, consultations, funding... all that takes time to put together. Even Hong Kong and Singapore can only manage one line every five years.

Why not have each of those done successively. Then once one line is done, shovels in the ground for the next one happens almost seamlessly.

So, for example, once the Evergreen Extension opens, the Broadway extension is started. Once the Broadway extension is done, the Surrey line is started.

The problem is, that is just not the case.

GlassCity · #**2706** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 7:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why not have each of those done successively. Then once one line is done, shovels in the ground for the next one happens almost seamlessly.

So, for example, once the Evergreen Extension opens, the Broadway extension is started. Once the Broadway extension is done, the Surrey line is started.

The problem is, that is just not the case.

All parties involved would love for this to be happening, or to even be building multiple projects at once as LA, Seattle and Toronto are doing. Unfortunately without the funding, there isn't anything anyone can do.

red-paladin · #**2707** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 11:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why not have each of those done successively. Then once one line is done, shovels in the ground for the next one happens almost seamlessly.

So, for example, once the Evergreen Extension opens, the Broadway extension is started. Once the Broadway extension is done, the Surrey line is started.

The problem is, that is just not the case.

Umm we would have had more lines done faster but the people voted down the proposed meager tax increase and all the projects it would have been spent on?

Caliplanner1 · #**2708** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 11:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Umm we would have had more lines done faster but the people voted down the proposed meager tax increase and all the projects it would have been spent on?

...it is said that "democracy" (by the uninformed/under informed/selfish masses) is expensive and often counter productive!

retro_orange · #**2709** Posted **Oct 2, 2016, 11:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

...it is said that "democracy" (by the uninformed/under informed/selfish masses) is expensive and often counter productive!

Hahaha, we should have a set of skill testing questions before they can participate in democracy

Kinda like what they have on the back of lotto scratch cards.

SOSS · #**2710** Posted **Oct 3, 2016, 6:14 AM**

The beauties of democracy. It really is the worst form of governance, except all the rest.

Kisai · #**2711** Posted **Oct 4, 2016, 1:48 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabotp

My wording was probably incorrect. I realize that things were built in the past 30 years. I'm just saying I don't think the lines were built as fast as they should of been. There are gaps in those years where nothing really happened. And most of that time was spent debating whether we needed something or what type of system was needed. It is the constant squabbling that has put us behind. Squabbling in the general public not on this forum.

Who, Vancouver or Toronto? I'd hate Toronto's system of the Mayor undermining the transit system. This is why I don't want the Mayor of Surrey to undermine the Skytrain system with second-rate transit.

cabotp · #**2712** Posted **Oct 4, 2016, 1:53 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Why not have each of those done successively. Then once one line is done, shovels in the ground for the next one happens almost seamlessly.

So, for example, once the Evergreen Extension opens, the Broadway extension is started. Once the Broadway extension is done, the Surrey line is started.

The problem is, that is just not the case.

Exactly, why do we have to wait for one line to be finished before we might even start planning the next line. They have started to get better of late. In that at least Translink is in the planning stage for the Broadway extension, and Surrey extension/LRT. Back in the 90's there would be no planning about the next line.

Keep in mind back in the late 80's they had a 40 year transportation plan. In it they had a line going from Downtown to Richmond, Downtown to Surrey, and a line out the Coquitlam. I can't remember if the Broadway line was on there though.

So they had the long term plan. It is the short term plans where things would stall. The public and the planners actually debated the line to Richmond for over 15 years before it was finally started. The Coquitlam line which is finally going to be finished soon was debated for about the same length of time. A lot of this was caused by political bickering.

Sure funding may slow us down. But at least have the plans ready. That way when you do have the funding we are not just sitting around bickering about what we should do.

cabotp · #**2713** Posted **Oct 4, 2016, 1:57 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kisai

Who, Vancouver or Toronto? I'd hate Toronto's system of the Mayor undermining the transit system. This is why I don't want the Mayor of Surrey to undermine the Skytrain system with second-rate transit.

I was referring to Metro Vancouver, not Toronto.

retro_orange · #**2714** Posted **Oct 4, 2016, 1:58 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabotp

Sure funding may slow us down. But at least have the plans ready. That way when you do have the funding we are not just sitting around bickering about what we should do.

Can't argue with that. The Broadway corridor plan should have been put together ages ago.

Kisai · #**2715** Posted **Oct 4, 2016, 3:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabotp

I was referring to Metro Vancouver, not Toronto.

And if we let the mayors have their way like they did, we still wouldn't have the Canada Line or the Evergreen line. This is why the province took that away from them, and I'd rather it stay that way as long as the province is promising to keep delivering Subway/Skytrain.

The Socreds ultimately had the vision to pick a smart technology, and the NDP after them not only kept it, but expanded it (Even though it was only through NDP-elected areas.) The Liberals P3P Canada Line project was a bit of a lame-duck of corner cutting but not ultimately awful, while the Evergreen-style extensions are exactly the kind of forward-thinking needed.

Metro-One · #**2716** Posted **Oct 4, 2016, 3:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kisai

And if we let the mayors have their way like they did, we still wouldn't have the Canada Line or the Evergreen line. This is why the province took that away from them, and I'd rather it stay that way as long as the province is promising to keep delivering Subway/Skytrain.

The Socreds ultimately had the vision to pick a smart technology, and the NDP after them not only kept it, but expanded it (Even though it was only through NDP-elected areas.) The Liberals P3P Canada Line project was a bit of a lame-duck of corner cutting but not ultimately awful, while the Evergreen-style extensions are exactly the kind of forward-thinking needed.

What we got in the Canada Line though was way better than what Richmond ultimately wanted, LRT running along 3rd road... ugh....

Also remember that Evergreen was going to be a separate technology LRT with at grade road sections until the province strong handed it back to skytrain.

officedweller · #**2717** Posted **Oct 4, 2016, 7:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabotp

Sure funding may slow us down. But at least have the plans ready. That way when you do have the funding we are not just sitting around bickering about what we should do.

The problem is that the design is tied to the funding.
Route selection and technology can be determined at the political / administrative level in advance.

In BC's case, we have proceeded by way of design-build contracts (Canada Line was design, build, operate, maintain and partially finance).

i.e. the contractor designs the system to optimize costs

Arguably, that results in design to budget or underbuilding, but then you also don't have the Toronto issues where the one hand (designers) and the other hand (contractors) aren't aligned and you have costs that spiral out of control.

i.e. TTC seems to contract for specified designs. If those designs are elaborate or "rich" with "nice to have" elements then you'll get high bids.

In BC, we go with all-inclusive, fixed price design-build contracts that keep costs down, which in turn allows more (albeit basic) infrastructure.

GlassCity · #**2718** Posted **Oct 5, 2016, 2:49 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metro-One

What we got in the Canada Line though was way better than what Richmond ultimately wanted, LRT running along 3rd road... ugh....

Also remember that Evergreen was going to be a separate technology LRT with at grade road sections until the province strong handed it back to skytrain.

Hopefully the strong provincial preference for SkyTrain over LRT would remain should the NDP be elected.

swimmer_spe · #**2719** Posted **Oct 5, 2016, 3:07 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Hopefully the strong provincial preference for SkyTrain over LRT would remain should the NDP be elected.

I would be that by the time they announce the project, the Expo line will end up with 3 branches instead of the current 2.

GlassCity · #**2720** Posted **Oct 5, 2016, 3:13 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I would be that by the time they announce the project, the Expo line will end up with 3 branches instead of the current 2.

What do you mean exactly? Who's they and what would the third branch be?

God damn I sound just like trofirhen