Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

The culture of Salt Lake City is really starting to gross me out. Our leadership live in suburban single family houses and they oversee the building of uninspiring dormitories to add housing to our city.

No one in the City Council or Mayor's office seem to actually know what urban life is. And now everyone has their hair on fire about this affordable housing crisis which just sounds like people totally inept at building urban life pushing the pedal to the metal to build crap even faster. The outcome will be cheap looking, the massing will continue to be all wrong, and it will be another segment of the city that we ignore in our minds as we drive by in our cars no different than the parking lots left behind.

We're a city full of burnouts who care more about hiking than our streets, old people who don't care anymore, and young people trying to get on their feet in life who inevitably leave as soon as they get established. We fund lots of little art projects that no one stops to take pictures of or next to because it isn't very interesting or bold in size or subject. Everyone thinks they're creative here, but no one really does anything worth noting.

It honestly just seems like a city where the leadership doesn't care and the developers don't care. And the people don't care (unless its about saving our water shed). The LDS Church has a vision for the city and that's about it. And that makes me sad.

Salt Lake as a whole is definitely a city that struggles with the new, but I see it changing. While the 4th and 4th project is unfortunate, the project was the instigator of changes to TSA zoning to make sure better projects are built. I'm hopeful that as we grow the projects will get better and banks will be more willing to fund projects that think outside the box.

[delts145]

Factually, there are quite a number of very attractively designed and finished residential projects going up around Salt Lake City. In fact, project for project I would say that Salt Lake City's project finishes are much more varied and interesting than what is going on here in Central Los Angeles. However, I do agree that 400 S. has been far underserved for what it's potential should be.

I would be curious to know how many of the projects in SLC have California roots. I pretty much cover Central Los Angeles continually. So, I'm very familiar with each and every project between Downtown to the coast. Interestingly, much if not most of what is going up here in L.A. looks like the 4th s. project. The only difference being that of adding two to ten more floors depending on the location and surrounding density. Los Angeles has been getting away with this kind of montrosity for decades. And yes, it has in some ways spoiled what was once one of the loveliest cities in the world. Fortunately, there are still a large number of apartment buildings from the pre-world war II era that stand as examples of what should be. I'm concerned that Salt Lake City often follows So. California trends too closely. That might be okay in some situations, but in building styles and finishes these past few decades, it's often a negative.

[DCRes]

A few shots from the Capital Building

[IMG] by , on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG] by , on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG] by , on Flickr[/IMG]

[ajiuO]

I don't understand why an emphasis isn't being made on building taller residential space. We have developers buying up all the land just to build these 6-7 story apartment buildings. You would think it might be cost effective to put more units on the same property as aposed to buying more land and doing more foundation work. It also is leaving less space for future vertical development. I think it would be nice to start seeing more 15-30 floor residential buildings as aposed to the 6 story crap going up everywhere.

I will say that the 4th west Apartments while very expensive seem to have a very nice looking building... I love the brick.

[ajiuO]

Also... with all of the new residents moving in downtown I think it's getting close to time for them to address the high school issue... a lot of people who live just blocks from west high are forced to go to east high, while they are bringing kids as far as 2200 west to west high... I don't know at which point that it should happen... but perhaps eventually a separate high school should be built to accommodate children from Glendale and Rose Park so that the West high district could be expanded further south.

I also like the idea of bringing back Horace Mann at some point... I think the block between fourth and fifth the west / fourth and fifth north. Might be a good place for a junior high... or even the block just north of that.

[Future Mayor]

It's less expensive for a developer to build a two level concrete podium with 5 stories of wood, on a wider parcel than it is for them to build taller. Once steal is required the costs go up drastically. Even a taller podium of one or two stories increases the cost quite a bit.

Yes they are taking up more space, but that actually will create more of a demand for future vertical development, because there will be no other direction to go but up. I wish the city would limit the footprint on buildings, which I believe they are addressing in the TSA zoning update. It encourages wide developments, and demolition of old structures.

One of the issues that we currently have is that we don't have a lot of urban developers in the Salt Lake City area. So companies like Wright that are used to developing Wal-Marts and Wendy's in the suburbs come into the city and fit their suburban model into an urban space. So until the city tightens up it's regulations or the urban developers start developing more, we are going to keep getting shit like 4th and 4th, and Encore.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Also... with all of the new residents moving in downtown I think it's getting close to time for them to address the high school issue... a lot of people who live just blocks from west high are forced to go to east high, while they are bringing kids as far as 2200 west to west high... I don't know at which point that it should happen... but perhaps eventually a separate high school should be built to accommodate children from Glendale and Rose Park so that the West high district could be expanded further south.

I also like the idea of bringing back Horace Mann at some point... I think the block between fourth and fifth the west / fourth and fifth north. Might be a good place for a junior high... or even the block just north of that.

Good point AjiuO. Where would a good location for a new High School be? Maybe basically midway between East High and West High?

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

It's less expensive for a developer to build a two level concrete podium with 5 stories of wood, on a wider parcel than it is for them to build taller. Once steal is required the costs go up drastically. Even a taller podium of one or two stories increases the cost quite a bit.

Yes they are taking up more space, but that actually will create more of a demand for future vertical development, because there will be no other direction to go but up.

Bingo. It's all about fire code and rent. Recent International Fire Code changes allowed for one level of post-tensioned concrete podium with up to four (five in some cases) stories of fire-treated wood. This type of development dominates all new build across all markets. We tend to think we're unique but I travel a lot and it's everywhere. When we look back at this era of build, we will marvel at all of the regrettable "Four Plus One" construction all around the country.

To go higher, you need to go steel as per IFC and to go to steel, you need median rents in excess of $1.75-$2psf. We're not there yet. I still think we'll see a condo tower before we see an apartment tower and it's probably going to be at City Creek as everybody, including banks, will be shy to go vertical with a condo tower until that happens.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by delts145

Good point AjiuO. Where would a good location for a new High School be? Maybe basically midway between East High and West High?

I actually think it should be built somewhere between redwood road and 2200 west. It should service the area west of I15 and south of the north salt lake county border... Im not sure how far south it should go, but at least as far as Glendell. Maybe put it somewhere around North temple or even 400 south. That would take a lot of kids away from West High... and then West Highs boundary could be extended further South and East. Right now if you live even just a few blocks away in the pioneer park area you are in the east high district... That's ridiculous.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

It's less expensive for a developer to build a two level concrete podium with 5 stories of wood, on a wider parcel than it is for them to build taller. Once steal is required the costs go up drastically. Even a taller podium of one or two stories increases the cost quite a bit.

Yes they are taking up more space, but that actually will create more of a demand for future vertical development, because there will be no other direction to go but up. I wish the city would limit the footprint on buildings, which I believe they are addressing in the TSA zoning update. It encourages wide developments, and demolition of old structures.

One of the issues that we currently have is that we don't have a lot of urban developers in the Salt Lake City area. So companies like Wright that are used to developing Wal-Marts and Wendy's in the suburbs come into the city and fit their suburban model into an urban space. So until the city tightens up it's regulations or the urban developers start developing more, we are going to keep getting shit like 4th and 4th, and Encore.

I would honestly be happy with more developments like the 4th west apartments... Have you seen that? Its mostly all brick and looks really good... they should kick Garbett to the curb and get that developer to develop that south Temple Property. Somthign like that would be a good fit there. we need more retail for sure though... Problem is no one leases it.

[ajiuO]

I think one of these two Blocks would be a great location for a new Jr. High (named Horace Mann of course). It would work well, especially since North West was relocated further west some years ago.



Has anyone heard any word on development for this area? I would like to see some condos go here that are more targeted at the middle class. That was what bridges was intended to be but it ended up being apartments because no one wanted to live there at the time... I think they might have more success now with so much development that has happened. I know that the houses on the other side of north temple are going to be replaced with more apartments. It might be nice to have some condos in the mix... Also I think it would be cool if the old Biomatt building was refurbished and used as a 24h convinces market for the area.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I would honestly be happy with more developments like the 4th west apartments... Have you seen that? Its mostly all brick and looks really good... they should kick Garbett to the curb and get that developer to develop that south Temple Property. Somthign like that would be a good fit there. we need more retail for sure though... Problem is no one leases it.

I too like the 4th North apartments, I was referring to the 4th and 4th, former sizzler in my complaints. Why kick Garbett to the curb? They are the ones developing the 361 apartments across from Pioneer Park. Garbett had several good plans for S. Temple in my opinion, it was the HLC that lead them to what we got. I guarantee that the developers of 4th N, would have ended up with pretty much the same thing as Garbett has, on S. Temple.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I too like the 4th North apartments, I was referring to the 4th and 4th, former sizzler in my complaints. Why kick Garbett to the curb? They are the ones developing the 361 apartments across from Pioneer Park. Garbett had several good plans for S. Temple in my opinion, it was the HLC that lead them to what we got. I guarantee that the developers of 4th N, would have ended up with pretty much the same thing as Garbett has, on S. Temple.

Ehh. All of Garbetts stuff looks the same to me. I just don't care for it very much. Seems like they try way too hard to have some post retro 1960s modern look or something. It is a good fit for some areas. But not South Temple. I personally think that anything built on South Temple should maintain an upscale timeless look... Instead of using stucco and all these other modern composite materials that will age very badly... It seems like all of garbetts designs used such materials... They probably would've looked fine if they would've been all brick.

I don't think that what they're building by Pioneer Park is a bad looking building... but once again everything else in the areas kind of classic brick warehouse type buildings... It seems like that building would be a much better fit for the area around Library Square... but I'm sure it will be just fine. I must admit that I preferred the townhomes that were originally going to be built there...

[Future Mayor]

I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about regarding Garbett on South Temple. You say you love the West 4th apartments because of the finish materials, being a large majority brick, and think Garbett on S. Temple should be similar. What am I missing?

Images linked from Building Salt Lake City.
Isaac, please let me know if you want me to remove them.

4th West


Hardage

[slc801]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Also... with all of the new residents moving in downtown I think it's getting close to time for them to address the high school issue... a lot of people who live just blocks from west high are forced to go to east high, while they are bringing kids as far as 2200 west to west high... I don't know at which point that it should happen... but perhaps eventually a separate high school should be built to accommodate children from Glendale and Rose Park so that the West high district could be expanded further south.

I also like the idea of bringing back Horace Mann at some point... I think the block between fourth and fifth the west / fourth and fifth north. Might be a good place for a junior high... or even the block just north of that.

I strongly dislike the idea of another high school in Salt Lake City, specifically because of how the city is currently divided. Currently the city is divided on lines going East to West. This means that each school draws from the poorer west side and the more affluent east side (the one that arguably pulls the least from affluent areas is West, although they also have the IB program which is a magnet for many students who fall more on the wealthy side). I love this solution. Sure, it provides a hassle in that students attend schools further away, but it makes education equitable and prevents the issue of a school that is primarily low SES (social economic status). When students who are low SES are given educational opportunities that are often only available to higher SES schools, they perform on par with higher SES students (as one example, more AP classes are often available at higher SES schools).

My concern of a new school is that it would have to be built on the west side. This would make a huge economic divide. The students there would be nearly entirely lower SES, which leads to a host of issues from behavior to teacher retention. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being low SES. Rather the stresses of economics affect these students in ways in which they preform lower, both academically and behaviorally (to get real nerdy on you, look at Maslow's Hirearchy of Needs. If your basic needs aren't mean-- food, shelter-- school doesn't matter. More students on the west side are struggling to have these needs met and thus they are more likely do focus on that rather than school). When they are paired with higher SES students, in addition to the economic benefits that trail higher SES students, the performance of lower SES students improves.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about regarding Garbett on South Temple. You say you love the West 4th apartments because of the finish materials, being a large majority brick, and think Garbett on S. Temple should be similar. What am I missing?

Images linked from Building Salt Lake City.
Isaac, please let me know if you want me to remove them.

4th West


Hardage

The difference between the two renderings that you posted is architectural style... The 4th west apartments will age a lot better than that rendering of what could go on South Temple. Once again Garbitt Holmes is trying to hard to have a modern look... It reminds me a lot of the contemporary simplistic 60s thing... with a brick overlay. I really do not like the decks towards the front of the building which offsets the rear of the building... That is just not a style I want to see on South Temple. I would prefer to see more classic looking apartment buildings on that particular Street.


This is actually the rendering I was thinking of when I said that it would look better with brick... I would be totally happy with this architectural style... just not the cladding. Brick on this rendering would look pretty good on South Temple. However not great. I would still change a lot about the base and roofline.., fourth W. Apartments would look fantastic on South Temple

[Future Mayor]

Again, it's wasn't Garbett it was the HLC that required more step backs and a reduction in the overall massing of the project.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

... I wish the city would limit the footprint on buildings, which I believe they are addressing in the TSA zoning update. It encourages wide developments, and demolition of old structures.

...

They ought to lose a lot of points in the TSA score for demolishing buildings.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Stenar

They ought to lose a lot of points in the TSA score for demolishing buildings.

[Stenar]

I like most of Garbett's designs, but I agree we need a more traditional look on South Temple.

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Ehh. All of Garbetts stuff looks the same to me. I just don't care for it very much. Seems like they try way too hard to have some post retro 1960s modern look or something. It is a good fit for some areas. But not South Temple. I personally think that anything built on South Temple should maintain an upscale timeless look... Instead of using stucco and all these other modern composite materials that will age very badly... It seems like all of garbetts designs used such materials... They probably would've looked fine if they would've been all brick.

I don't think that what they're building by Pioneer Park is a bad looking building... but once again everything else in the areas kind of classic brick warehouse type buildings... It seems like that building would be a much better fit for the area around Library Square... but I'm sure it will be just fine. I must admit that I preferred the townhomes that were originally going to be built there...