Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

The reality is that they will pay for this privilege, as the market values of their condos will adjust to the fact that virtually no non-Mandarin speakers will be interested in buying units in that complex... they will effectively be limiting the pool of buyers drastically. Maybe they don't care; that's their call to make.

Doesn't this make the scenario much worse for people who find that the condo complexes they buy into change over time? Not only does the language of operation change in a difficult to predict way, pressuring them to leave, but those who leave also end up selling at a loss***.

Keep in mind we're also balancing this out against the cost of the fix, which in the worst case is for people to pay for translation services in the condo. Or to expect immigrants to at least have a proxy who can understand one of the two official languages, which I think would pay a lot of dividends in terms of integration and economic outcomes. That is not exactly a high bar.

In BC the ESL situation has actually been getting a little worse because of funding cuts. I think anybody here should be entitled to free ESL courses. Good ESL training for newcomers prevents most of these problems from happening in the first place.

*** This is generally untrue right now in Vancouver. The Chinese non-English-speakers often have a lot of money and they have been fuelling huge increases in real estate prices in areas like Richmond.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

From what I've heard of them, they are meetings at which items of great personal significance to the daily lives of the owners are discussed and debated in a much less formal forum than a shareholder meeting called to vote yes or no on a series of well defined questions, at which very few shareholders are personally present or would have any reason to be.

Umm, like making decisions about expensive maintenance projects that everyone is *obliged* to pay into?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yes, I think Germany is dealing with a much more challenging situation because they haven't been as free to choose who to allow in. It doesn't make much sense for Canadians to pat themselves on the back for doing comparatively better when this country is simply lucky not to be near other unstable countries. If one million refugees landed in Canada I'm not sure this country would be better at handling them.

Canada has been both lucky (for the reasons you stated) and smart.

It's been smarter than most European countries because it sourced immigrants from many different countries as opposed to one or a handful of former colonies.

Canada has also opened up the doors to socio-economic progress much more than most European countries, where the idea that immigrants were a
''temporary support worker'' class still won't go away in the minds of many.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Umm, like making decisions about expensive maintenance projects that everyone is *obliged* to pay into?

Not sure I understand the point but if you're saying that condo meetings only ever discuss matters of routine on which no one can or does disagree, that's not my impression.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Not sure I understand the point but if you're saying that condo meetings only ever discuss matters of routine on which no one can or does disagree, that's not my impression.

I was actually in agreement with you. It's important that people can have their say at condo board or strata council meetings, and can understand what is going on and the decisions that are being made.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by esquire

Even if the meetings themselves are conducted in English, there is nothing to prevent directors from staging informal gatherings beforehand (which, let's face it, are typically where the real decisions are made in many kinds of organizations) where the shots get called in Chinese, and at the meeting you just get a bunch of resolutions on the floor with little discussion or debate.

You've just precisely described Chinese corporate culture. Actual decisions and discussions are conducted behind the scenes by the higher-ups. Meetings are held merely to relay instructions to underlings. You would never dare engage in discussion with the boss in front of the other employees or management, as the potential for contradiction is a minefield best avoided, as that might cause someone to lose "face."

This kind of thinking extends to all interactions in terms of business or pleasure. It would actually be shocking if the condo directors didn't make decisions behind the scenes before conducting the formality of the meetings.

[Miu]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada has been both lucky (for the reasons you stated) and smart.

It's been smarter than most European countries because it sourced immigrants from many different countries as opposed to one or a handful of former colonies.

Canada has also opened up the doors to socio-economic progress much more than most European countries, where the idea that immigrants were a
''temporary support worker'' class still won't go away in the minds of many.

Immigrants in Germany do as well as those in Canada by most measures, and better than those in the US. The North American media and public debate tend to apply very different standards when it comes immigration and integration in Europe and North America, and this is often reconfirmed by different self-perceptions on both sides of the Atlantic (Europeans, and Germans in particular, generally consider themselves to be behind on social issues, whereas Americans and Canadians generally consider themselves to be ahead of the rest).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Miu

Immigrants in Germany do as well as those in Canada by most measures, and better than those in the US. The North American media and public debate tend to apply very different standards when it comes immigration and integration in Europe and North America, and this is often reconfirmed by different self-perceptions on both sides of the Atlantic (Europeans, and Germans in particular, generally consider themselves to be behind on social issues, whereas Americans and Canadians generally consider themselves to be ahead of the rest).

My point was not to bash on Europe. My point was that Canada's immigrant integration approaches is one of the best in the world. And I still do believe this to be true.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Miu

Immigrants in Germany do as well as those in Canada by most measures, and better than those in the US. The North American media and public debate tend to apply very different standards when it comes immigration and integration in Europe and North America, and this is often reconfirmed by different self-perceptions on both sides of the Atlantic (Europeans, and Germans in particular, generally consider themselves to be behind on social issues, whereas Americans and Canadians generally consider themselves to be ahead of the rest).

I have friends who were immigrants to Germany and then to Canada. They had very good lives in Germany. However, one of the reasons they decided to immigrant to Canada, is because they said you were still always made to feel like an outsider. No matter how well you did, many European countries never view you as "a part" of Europe. You an outsider, even if you have lived there 20 years.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by whatnext

So you're defending the actions of this condo board? Unbelievable...

huh, what? I think you missed the point (and target) of my ire entirely. I made absolutely no remark upon said condo board. You are therefore mistaken.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I have friends who were immigrants to Germany and then to Canada. They had very good lives in Germany. However, one of the reasons they decided to immigrant to Canada, is because they said you were still always made to feel like an outsider. No matter how well you did, many European countries never view you as "a part" of Europe. You an outsider, even if you have lived there 20 years.

That also exists in parts of Canada and especially in the Atlantic provinces. Even Canadians who move to the Atlantic provinces are seen as outsiders for decades after they moved there.

[Hali87]

Depends what parts you're talking about. It might be true of some of the rural areas and outposts that have been populated by the same dozen families for the last 200 years but it's not really true in Halifax, St. John's, the college towns, etc.

Halifax for example is currently pushing to open elections up to non-citizens.

[Loco101]

And I have to add that it exists in Quebec. Even where I live I've seen evidence of it from some people.

I'm not saying that the people are treated badly, just that they are basically considered not as good as those who were born there. And that "come from afar" thing just has to go in Newfoundland.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Loco101

And I have to add that it exists in Quebec. Even where I live I've seen evidence of it from some people.

I'm not saying that the people are treated badly, just that they are basically considered not as good as those who were born there.

Not sure what you mean by this. Could you give an example?

And that "come from afar" thing just has to go in Newfoundland.

"Come from away", and agreed.

[ssiguy]

I think the whole issue of Chinese-only signs and this obscene Mandarin-only condo meeting is an affront to Canadians, Canada, and her laws.

If you can afford to run a business or buy a condo in Vancouver then you can afford to take a Berlitz English course............end of story.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Loco101

And I have to add that it exists in Quebec. Even where I live I've seen evidence of it from some people.

I'm not saying that the people are treated badly, just that they are basically considered not as good as those who were born there. And that "come from afar" thing just has to go in Newfoundland.

This can apply to most rural areas, especially those experiencing economic hardship. As it so happens the Atlantic provinces are primarily rural except for a few exceptions in a handful of cities. I've seen this same sort of tendency in rural Quebec and rural Ontario just as much as out East.

[vid]

People in Northern Ontario (not all of them, but many) refuse to accept any advice from people in Southern Ontario, even if it's good advice or a true statement.

"Oh, sure, the sky might be blue in Toronto, but we're in Northern Ontario and it's fucking cerulean!"

[GlassCity]

Richmond's Chinese bus stop ads must now be at least 50% in English

All advertising on bus shelters and bus benches in Richmond must now be at least 50% in English, after concerns were raised over Chinese-only ads in the city.

Read more: http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/richmond-chinese-english-bus-stops-shelters-benches-advertisements

Strange that this is coming up now all of a sudden. It only applies to bus stops for now though, because the deal is with Pattison (is he famous outside of Vancouver?) Advertising and not a by-law. Hints at a mention of this issue in a new signage by-law to be introduced later this year though.

[kwoldtimer]

I wonder if anyone will attempt a Charter challenge?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder if anyone will attempt a Charter challenge?

A Charter challenge would seem extremely contrived to me. You have a contractual agreement between two parties. I know the city is a public entity but still... Pattison wasn't compelled to do anything AFAIK.