Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Pinus]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I a sure a PC Principal will try to defend this, but this is troubling and is quite disgusting and really adds an unneeded strain between the Chinese and non-Chinese community (even between the Cantonese and Mandarin community).

The official languages are English and French. Strata meetings should be accessible for ALL people of the community.

Welcome to Canada, learn one of the official languages (or both!).

There is nothing wrong with retaining your own language and culture, but as a nation we do need unifying basics (such a language) that all people should at least attempt to learn.

No development / building should be completely tailored to one single ethnicity. This goes completely against progressive multiculturalism, and will only divide communities more.

As the article suggests, an interpreter should be hired for those who can't understand English. I am sure one of the Mandarin speaking council members are perfectly capable of translating the meetings for non-English speaking Chinese members.

All I know is I have been living in Japan for 2 years, and working my ass off the speak Japanese. Finally getting there, I would hate to come to Japan just to speak English and essentially only be friends with other westerners.

I could not imagine living in a complex in Japan that is 70% English speakers, and then telling the Japanese members, sorry, all meetings are in English only from now one.

Talk about spitting on your new home country.

Good post. This is a great country and has always been welcoming to immigrants. But the lines need to be drawn somewhere. We mustn't allow situations like this to be upheld. It sends the wrong message to both foreigners and Canadians alike on what this country is truly about.

[kwoldtimer]

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[kwoldtimer]

Will Canadians ever grasp the meaning of official languages in Canada? With few exceptions (eg Air Canada) has nothing to do with communication in the private sector (and a condominium/strata corporation would be private sector, not public). One will see if the BC Human Rights Tribunal makes a finding of discrimination, but whatever the finding, the most likely outcome will be provision for Mandarin/English interpretation at future condo meetings.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Will Canadians ever grasp the meaning of official languages in Canada? With few exceptions (eg Air Canada) has nothing to do with communication in the private sector (and a condominium/strata corporation would be private sector, not public). One will see if the BC Human Rights Tribunal makes a finding of discrimination, but whatever the finding, the most likely outcome will be provision for Mandarin/English interpretation at future condo meetings.

Strictu sensu, you're right but it's more complicated than that.

Sure, the guy won't get a ruling from a human rights commission awarding him damages or ordering the strata council to pay a fine.

But the strata councils or boards are not strictly private entities outside of government regulation. They are not like private tai-chi clubs or something of that nature.

They are overseen by the BC Ministry of Housing (I would assume) and as a result a fairly likely impact of this kerfuffle is a blanket change to procedures in the province that would require such entities to hold their meetings in English.

[Acajack]

One of the points of having an official language (or languages), and of learning them if you are a newcomer, is that once you know it it's supposed to allow you participate without barriers in any aspect of societal life that has a remotely "official" dimension. Surely a collective condo board that administers money it is empowered to collect from you under the authority of provincial legislation should be covered by this.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Strictu sensu, you're right but it's more complicated than that.

Sure, the guy won't get a ruling from a human rights commission awarding him damages or ordering the strata council to pay a fine.

But the strata councils or boards are not strictly private entities outside of government regulation. They are not like private tai-chi clubs or something of that nature.

They are overseen by the BC Ministry of Housing (I would assume) and as a result a fairly likely impact of this kerfuffle is a blanket change to procedures in the province that would require such entities to hold their meetings in English.

It is a possible outcome, although I wonder if that result might not set things up for a Charter challenge (freedom of expression).

Out of curiosity, I took a very quick glance at Ontario's Condominium Act and didn't see anything relating to the language of meetings of the condo board. What is clear, is that much of the condo's documentation would need to be in English or French (at least). One thing the recently revised Ontario Act did was to create simplified dispute-resolution mechanisms. That would seem to me a better route for resolving the language issue, as opposed to a human rights complaint.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It is a possible outcome, although I wonder if that result might not set things up for a Charter challenge (freedom of expression).

Out of curiosity, I took a very quick glance at Ontario's Condominium Act and didn't see anything relating to the language of meetings of the condo board. What is clear, is that much of the condo's documentation would need to be in English or French (at least). One thing the recently revised Ontario Act did was to create simplified dispute-resolution mechanisms. That would seem to me a better route for resolving the language issue, as opposed to a human rights complaint.

Oh I agree that a human rights tribunal is not really the appropriate place for dealing with such matters.

But again, I don't think that a Canadian should be prevented from taking part in the proceedings of something that is subject to government oversight because he doesn't speak a foreign language.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh I agree that a human rights tribunal is not really the appropriate place for dealing with such matters.

But again, I don't think that a Canadian should be prevented from taking part in the proceedings of something that is subject to government oversight because he doesn't speak a foreign language.

On that we agree - if the condo board is going to hold discussions in Mandarin at meetings open to unit owners, then it behooves them to ensure that English translation is offered whenever required.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

jesus do you need to pollute every thread with your stereotypical angry man spiel?

Most people that live abroad for a spell have an expanded worldview. Most people, that is. Evidently yours became constricted.

So you're defending the actions of this condo board? Unbelievable...

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

On that we agree - if the condo board is going to hold discussions in Mandarin at meetings open to unit owners, then it behooves them to ensure that English translation is offered whenever required.

I totally disagree.

It is not the responsibility of someone not understanding Mandarin to have to get an interpreter but rather the responsibility of someone who doesn't speak English to get an interpreter.

If they don't know English or French that is their problem.. Frankly I find it offensive that anyone can get into the country {except refugees} without having a solid command of English or French. It's even more offensive that they are in the country and couldn't even be bothered to learn them.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There does seem to be a slight problem in our messaging about what Canada is all about or at least in the perception that some people have about what Canada is.

I don't think it's just the messaging. Different groups in this country have a different idea of how this ought to work. Some people have a "free-market country of immigrants" type perspective and think that everything should be left to sort itself out. Others believe in some sort of intervention.

Personally, I think the laissez-faire idea is naive, both economically and socially (they are the same thing really). Canada is a small country and sometimes we will need to impose on people who want to do things like operate condos exclusively in Mandarin if society is to run well. And we will need to redistribute income and wealth in order for everybody to have a good standard of living.

I've mentioned this before but I also think this is something that breaks down along regional lines, with some exceptions where negative consequences are felt more directly. Some of the differences are due to history, which we tend to completely ignore. It's pretty common to hear people assume a more-or-less-blank cultural slate here in Vancouver, for example, but that does not really fly east of Ontario, not because people are racist but because they feel, on the whole, more of a historical personal connection to the place they inhabit because their ancestors have been there longer. One common thing here is that people will discuss what they "are" ethnically. They'll say Chinese or Taiwanese, or Italian. Maybe there's a mix. Very frequently one or both parents are from somewhere far away (and maybe even the kids are dual citizens). I don't really have an answer to that; I wouldn't say that I have any ethnicity other than "Canadian". If you look at common responses from the census, this is a major trend.


Source

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I totally disagree.

It is not the responsibility of someone not understanding Mandarin to have to get an interpreter but rather the responsibility of someone who doesn't speak English to get an interpreter.

If they don't know English or French that is their problem.. Frankly I find it offensive that anyone can get into the country {except refugees} without having a solid command of English or French. It's even more offensive that they are in the country and couldn't even be bothered to learn them.

In the situation that was described in the news report the onus would be on the condo board to provide the interpreter (or do the job itself).

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I totally disagree.

It is not the responsibility of someone not understanding Mandarin to have to get an interpreter but rather the responsibility of someone who doesn't speak English to get an interpreter.

If they don't know English or French that is their problem.. Frankly I find it offensive that anyone can get into the country {except refugees} without having a solid command of English or French. It's even more offensive that they are in the country and couldn't even be bothered to learn them.

Exactly. What good is our vaunted points system if you don't lose massive points for not being able to speak English or French well enough to conduct daily business?

[Marshal]

I would like to take another angle to this. Many contracts do, and good contract law should include a defined "language of the contract and its implementation." If there is a clause enforcing a language for these purposes, then all signitories would have already agreed, and there could be no upset on either side of the coin. The fact that such a simple clause is so often omitted is puzzling to me. After all, its prime purpose is to enforce the language that the contract itself is written in. My office includes one in all client contracts, but now that I say that, I realize that it is the case because I make it so. Anyway. This would remove the bigger cans of worms of official langauges and human rights from the debate.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Exactly. What good is our vaunted points system if you don't lose massive points for not being able to speak English or French well enough to conduct daily business?

This.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think it's just the messaging. Different groups in this country have a different idea of how this ought to work. Some people have a "free-market country of immigrants" type perspective and think that everything should be left to sort itself out. Others believe in some sort of intervention.

Personally, I think the laissez-faire idea is naive, both economically and socially (they are the same thing really). Canada is a small country and sometimes we will need to impose on people who want to do things like operate condos exclusively in Mandarin if society is to run well. And we will need to redistribute income and wealth in order for everybody to have a good standard of living.

I've mentioned this before but I also think this is something that breaks down along regional lines, with some exceptions where negative consequences are felt more directly. Some of the differences are due to history, which we tend to completely ignore. It's pretty common to hear people assume a more-or-less-blank cultural slate here in Vancouver, for example, but that does not really fly east of Ontario, not because people are racist but because they feel, on the whole, more of a historical personal connection to the place they inhabit because their ancestors have been there longer. One common thing here is that people will discuss what they "are" ethnically. They'll say Chinese or Taiwanese, or Italian. Maybe there's a mix. Very frequently one or both parents are from somewhere far away (and maybe even the kids are dual citizens). I don't really have an answer to that; I wouldn't say that I have any ethnicity other than "Canadian". If you look at common responses from the census, this is a major trend.

Good analysis. And yet we get so many people who deny that this is in the air in much of Canada.

Regarding the issue at hand, I don't really blame the Mandarin speakers.

It's totally normal for a group of people from group X to speak their own language when they're amongst themselves.

But I do think it's the "blank slate" thing that kind of allows for a bit more defiance, like when a non-speaker asks to take part, and the (admittedly nice and polite) message, if you read between the lines, is still something like: "Dear Anglo Guy. No, we won't be switching to your language even if it is the official one of the city, province and country. Have a nice life and fuck you."

I would assume that there might be a number of places in the U.S. where city or town council meetings are basically held in Spanish. (But the paperwork is all in English.) Of course, one would expect the "one drop" rule to apply, and as soon as one non-Spanish speaking councillor is elected, or if a non-Spanish speaking citizen is in attendance, everything would take place in English.

[esquire]

People get too hung up on the whole "official languages" thing. Governments have official languages, the rest of us don't. We can do business in whatever language we want as long as our official filings with government are in an official language.

As far as I'm concerned, if these condo owners in Richmond want to run their business in Mandarin, there should be no obstacles to this whatsoever. The reality is that they will pay for this privilege, as the market values of their condos will adjust to the fact that virtually no non-Mandarin speakers will be interested in buying units in that complex... they will effectively be limiting the pool of buyers drastically. Maybe they don't care; that's their call to make.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But I do think it's the "blank slate" thing that kind of allows for a bit more defiance, like when a non-speaker asks to take part, and the (admittedly nice and polite) message, if you read between the lines, is still something like: "Dear Anglo Guy. No, we won't be switching to your language even if it is the official one of the city, province and country. Have a nice life and fuck you."

Good for them. Go to any marginally global city on this earth and it's virtually assured that you will find a predominantly English speaking expat community where people do business, socialize and educate their kids in English. I don't know too many people coming back from stints overseas who become fully proficient in the local languages abroad. This is not much different.

It's hypocritical for us to invite foreigners to come here to our multicultural land of freedom, with their presumably plump bank accounts, only to all of a sudden start dictating to them what language they may or may not do business in.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good for them. Go to any marginally global city on this earth and it's virtually assured that you will find a predominantly English speaking expat community where people do business, socialize and educate their kids in English. I don't know too many people coming back from stints overseas who become fully proficient in the local languages abroad. This is not much different.

It's hypocritical for us to invite foreigners to come here to our multicultural land of freedom, with their presumably plump bank accounts, only to all of a sudden start dictating to them what language they may or may not do business in.

Well, I am of one of those who generally abhors "expat" behaviour, so...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

People get too hung up on the whole "official languages" thing. Governments have official languages, the rest of us don't. We can do business in whatever language we want as long as our official filings with government are in an official language.

As far as I'm concerned, if these condo owners in Richmond want to run their business in Mandarin, there should be no obstacles to this whatsoever. The reality is that they will pay for this privilege, as the market values of their condos will adjust to the fact that virtually no non-Mandarin speakers will be interested in buying units in that complex... they will effectively be limiting the pool of buyers drastically. Maybe they don't care; that's their call to make.

This isn't entirely accurate IMO.

You're entitled to live wherever you want in Vancouver. And you shouldn't be prevented from living in this particular condo complex because you don't speak Mandarin and the provincially-mandated condo board you have to pay fees to only wants to communicate in that language (which is a non-official one).

As well, I assume that the condo board has to file information and other materials to the city and province, and I highly doubt these would be written in Chinese characters.