Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The plan now is a LRT. Would a Skytrain line with a branch covering all of where the LRT wast to go be more viable?

Can the LRT use the same cars as the Skytrain so that the busier part can continue to Waterfront?

SkyTrain covering the entire proposed LRT network would be a fair bit more expensive, so may not be possible. But an Expo Line extension to Langley with the rest of the proposed network being an enhanced 96 B-Line would be even more viable than LRT, not to mention useful.

LRT can't use the same cars because they get their power differently. SkyTrain gets its power from a third rail on the ground, whereas LRT (traditionally) gets its power from overhead wires.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

To be completely fair, LRT doesn't have to have such low frequencies.

But the requirement to have a driver on each train means that cash-strapped transit services will usually run longer trains that come less often because it's cheaper that way. The beauty of a grade-separated automated system is that you can have high frequencies with far less of an increase in operating costs.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Shift

^Doesn't sound much worse than SkyTrain on a weekend. Typically a 10 min wait for one at Surrey Central on any given Saturday or Sunday. The platform is usually crowded by the time a train comes and is standing room only from the get go.

You didn't just compare weekend service with weekday rush hour service, did you?

While I was waiting for the Portland Max I overheard someone waiting say that one of the other lines was completely closed because of a protest on the lines. There's another issue that SkyTrain doesn't have to deal with that LRT potentially does.

[Shift]

Actually weekend volumes on SkyTrain are approaching weekday off-peak levels, but yes, the service is still reduced compared to that. TransLink has acknowledged this in their latest Transit Service Performance Review: Page 20-21 (http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...sit%20Service%20Performance%20Review.pdf). Whether anything is done about this is a different matter.

I saw that in the report and laughed. Standing room only is not "off-peak" level. The train is literally always jammed from Burrard/Granville Stations going east, and very full standing room only from Surrey Central going west, majority of the day well into the night Saturdays and most of the day Sunday. I take it every weekend. Conversely, I've taken it "off-peak" during the week and it's a breeze. Always a seat leaving Surrey Central, and always seats leaving downtown.

Weekend service needs to be brought up to weekday frequency and they have the capacity to do it, end of story.

[xd_1771]

Regarding that, it was a couple years ago when weekend frequencies were dropped by 1 minute (from around 2002 to when this was done 2013 it was actually the same as off-peak weekday freqs of 3/6 mins, since then it has been 3.5/7 during daytime hours) as a result of outside pressures on TransLink to cut costs. I remember that the annual savings of doing this would amount to less than $1 million, but it was done as part of a package that included numerous other cost-cutting measures and there were very loud voices against TransLink at the time, so I see it as an unfortunate but necessary move.

The capacity constraint does get annoying, especially when compounded with the use of 4-car Mark Is and the summer heat. However I do feel like that with the release of the new report, weekend frequencies will be heading back to 3/6 minute service levels soon enough. At the very least we do have the Mark IIIs and that should help bring up capacity during the weekends, since in the early stages of operation they should be under warranty and BCRTC will want to use them to their full extent.

It's funny, a provincial audit around that time actually recommended that the service drop also be taken to the weekday off-peak times because they were willing to make the cut on weekends. I'm sure we're all glad that didn't happen.

[Sheba]

I remember being against them reducing off-peak frequency as it was already getting crowded on some of the trains, and if they did it was going to feel like rush hour all day. It's a safe bet that I'm not the only person who said that.

[swimmer_spe]

Would I be right in thinking that beyond Broadway/Commercial the Expo Line will be quieter once the Evergreen Extension is open for revenue service?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Would I be right in thinking that beyond Broadway/Commercial the Expo Line will be quieter once the Evergreen Extension is open for revenue service?

I doubt it'll make much difference. People from Coquitlam would be taking the Millennium Line now unless they're going somewhere along the Expo Line, and that's not going to change just because they're taking a Skytrain instead of the 97 B. The downtown Van section will see some relief once Millennium is extended to the Canada Line.

[Express691]

City Of Surrey is currently tweeting quotes from someone who is apparently giving a session on the current LRT situation.

[officedweller]

Maybe this:

Light rail lessons for Surrey from Toronto's chief city planner
http://www.news1130.com/2016/09/14/light-rail-lessons-for-surrey-from-torontos-chief-city-planner/

[Waders]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Maybe this:

Light rail lessons for Surrey from Toronto's chief city planner
http://www.news1130.com/2016/09/14/light-rail-lessons-for-surrey-from-torontos-chief-city-planner/

A few points are mentioned in CBC's news article Light rail to Surrey by 2018: tips from Toronto's chief planner

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Waders

A few points are mentioned in CBC's news article Light rail to Surrey by 2018: tips from Toronto's chief planner

.... what is not mentioned here is that a good portion of the Eglington Crosstown line is a subway below Eglington Avenue (as well as a transit system with its own right-of-way roadway separation in sections at grade) so as to reduce surface street congestion and promote vehicular/pedestrian traffic safety along with potentially speedier travel times.

[xd_1771]

Just as an update... according to Amy Reid's report here http://www.thenownewspaper.com/news/394459631.html

It appears Surrey did kick in some tax $ for Keesmat, paying a $5000 honorarium although $2000 of it was directly from downtown businesses. While they are saying "honorarium" I know some people who are speculating that the money was a fee instead. Whatever the case I feel it's a cause for concern.

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

.... what is not mentioned here is that a good portion of the Eglington Crosstown line is a subway below Eglington Avenue (as well as a transit system with its own right-of-way roadway separation in sections at grade) so as to reduce surface street congestion and promote vehicular/pedestrian traffic safety along with potentially speedier travel times.

The report also said that Surrey apparently invited her (or took her in) out of feeling that the Eglinton project was similar, and you just pointed out exactly why that's so ironic...

[officedweller]

Cone of silence over cost estimates for Broadway subway, Surrey LRT
https://www.biv.com/article/2016/9/cone-silence-over-cost-estimates-broadway-subway-s/

[Trainguy]

Today's New Jersey commuter train crash just adds more fuel to the argument that LRT is the wrong way to go for Surrey. Skytrain is computer controlled and therefore has not had an accident since it opened. Driver operated trains that mix directly with traffic are prone to accidents and deaths like what happened today. If they do build LRT and don't install PTC, then they are asking for trouble right from the start. Reducing 104th to one lane in each direction will force people to use other roads to get around the gridlock. What a mess that will create. Makes me wonder what Surrey City Council is smoking...

[surreydemo]

• Video Link
Here is the entire video from the Toronto's chief planner

[Shift]

^Thanks for posting.

She makes some good points about how LRT can be an impetus for city building and rethinking it as not merely just for moving people from Point A to B.

Also makes good points as to how cities need to take a multi-tiered approach to transit services - Subways / Regional Rail / LRT / Streetcar / Bus based on what is appropriate for different areas, and that they should not all be aimed at funneling people downtown. Cities of the future will be increasingly multi-nodal with downtown densities and nodes distributed more evenly around regions. Metro Vancouver is already a good example of where this is happening.

[officedweller]

Yeah, that's why we have the "T-Line" - the Millennium Line with the connection between Lougheed and Columbia. That link, though little used, would have been built even if the Millennium was built as LRT, as originally envisaged. It was in the Livabel Region Strategic Plan to get commuters from the northeast to Surrey.
Now with the Evergreen Line finally built, it'll hopefully encourage more suburb to suburb commuting.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Shift

Also makes good points as to how cities need to take a multi-tiered approach to transit services - Subways / Regional Rail / LRT / Streetcar / Bus based on what is appropriate for different areas, and that they should not all be aimed at funneling people downtown.

So far we have: Skytrain (Subway), WCE (Regional Rail) and bus. We're missing a few of the pieces. I would hope we get some more regional rail somehow.

Sadly TransLink planners still seem to be heavily about getting people into and out of downtown Vancouver. Bus routes in both Surrey and Richmond are heavily north-south (towards Vancouver) and it took forever to get any kind of direct bus service between the two.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Sheba

So far we have: Skytrain (Subway), WCE (Regional Rail) and bus. We're missing a few of the pieces. I would hope we get some more regional rail somehow.

Sadly TransLink planners still seem to be heavily about getting people into and out of downtown Vancouver. Bus routes in both Surrey and Richmond are heavily north-south (towards Vancouver) and it took forever to get any kind of direct bus service between the two.

In theory the Skytrain line to Coquitlam, in Surrey, and along Broadway would of been done and running by now. By this point we should of been looking at starting to run LRT type lines along heavily used feeder routes. But for quite some time over the past 30 years. Nothing happened and thus we are having to play catch up.