Surrey Updates

[Shift]

City Centre building heights plan has the Anthem site designated partially 110m (38 storeys) and partially 60m (20 storeys). As jhausner said, this can always be applied to be amended, but safe to say that we'll probably see at least 35-40 storey towers proposed on a portion of the site.

[officedweller]

Anthem doesn't seem to have any office properties in its portfolio (unlike ONNI).
That may mean it'll be developed with mostly residential and retail (maybe some office in podiums).
https://www.anthemproperties.com/

[scryer]

Originally Posted by sryboy

Well said Shift.
I wish they would use names instead numbers for the streets. I think that would help build some character.

No one said it's too late to change a street name

Hell they changed Whalley to North Surrey...

[Shift]

^Whalley is still one of Surrey's 6 communities. The name has not gone away.

Whalley
Guildford
Fleetwood
Newton
Cloverdale
South Surrey

All except South Surrey are considered North Surrey.

City Centre is a separate community within and surrounded by Whalley.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by Shift

^Whalley is still one of Surrey's 6 communities. The name has not gone away.

Whalley
Guildford
Fleetwood
Newton
Cloverdale
South Surrey

All except South Surrey are considered North Surrey.

City Centre is a separate community within and surrounded by Whalley.

actually he is right they have slowly been trying to sweep the Whalley name under the rug.
Just look at the cities site of the communities. You'll see what is now called north Surrey in place of whalley. I pointed this out months ago if not almost a year.

http://www.surrey.ca/community/6798.aspx

[Shift]

^Interesting. I'm not sure they've officially changed the name from Whalley. There are plenty of inconsistencies on the City's website.



If you look at the North Surrey page, it refers to both Whalley and City Centre within it, with a section for Whalley Secondary Plans.

http://www.surrey.ca/community/6803.aspx

[GMasterAres]

I think it is part to try and drop the stigma of the name and also part because it is actually confusing when you start to break things down.

For example does "Whalley" include City Centre or not? Is Whalley made up of smaller pieces like Bridgeview or South Westminster for example? They have a South Westminster OCP but it is part of Whalley which is part of... what?

And people sometimes reference North Surrey and include Guildford in that. It just get super confusing.

So I think they partly want to just say "North Surrey" = top part minus Guildford and get rid of everything else. Either way it's all the same place no matter what you call it.

[Whalleyboy]

I think its one of those slow games the city is playing with the name. Every time they try and do something big like the name change people freak out. Just look at whalley Blvd. That name was not suppose to be that. They were hoping to get rid of the whalley from both when they use to be east and west whalley ring rd.

Also a lot of those plans are pretty old so they arent going to go back and change the plans.

As for the bridge view south westminster etc. Its all just further break downs of the area. Like how you have cresent beach, semiahmoo, Grandview corners are all part of south Surry
Cloverdale has both cloverdale and clayton.
I could list for almost every community of surrey but to put it simple every community breaks down to smaller communities. Its gives a sense of being when you're part of something easier to focus on.

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by Shift

And this is just the start:
Applications are underway for a 46 tower and 20 storey tower on the site just to the East
Concord's application for a 42 storey tower to the south behind the original 3 towers.
The Hub's 5 additional towers to the South of King George Station.
Century Group's 2 towers next to Holland Park.
An application underway for a 26 storey tower at 98/Fraser and King George

So 11 more towers to this hub around King George within the next 5-7 years.


Came across this image on DYS architecture's site for the 46 storey / 20 storey project to the east. Says completion 2015, so this was for the original application back in 2013. I'm not sure whats going on with that. A Development Permit and DVP were both issued for the project in 2014, but now its under a new 2016 application for the exact same things.

2013 Application with DP and DVP issued:
https://apps.surrey.ca/Online-Development-Inquiry/?year=13&seq=0220

2016 Application applying for exact same DP and DVP:
https://apps.surrey.ca/Online-Development-Inquiry/?year=16&seq=0053


http://www.dysarchitecture.com/projects/king-george-100th-avenue-development.php

Just to quote Shift who noted in the Park Avenue forum that a number of applications are underway in Surrey including Century Group's Holland Pointe.

Also found another rendering of the 46 storey 100 Ave project.

Source: http://www.dysarchitecture.com/projects/king-george-100th-avenue-development.php

[rickvug]

I'm curious about the timeline for Downtown Surrey to be substantially built out and what that might look like. How many towers and lowrises could be built within the plan? What is the current pace of development?

Like some others (Shift, I'm looking at you!) I'm excited about all the development in the pipeline. I really am rooting for Surrey. However my guess is that it will take about two decades for most of the miles of surface parking to be redeveloped. University Boulevard has started to really come together. King George, not so much. I'd be curious to hear others opinions and see if anyone has actually modelled this out.

[rickvug]

Poking around at http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/1343.aspx helps to get a better sense of development. Surrey's own projections:

In 2006, the population of Surrey City Centre totalled 23,000. In 2006, 14,500 people were employed in Surrey City Centre. It is anticipated that by 2031, the population of Surrey City Centre will increase to 65,000 and the number of people employed in Surrey City Centre will rise to 36,000. - See more at: http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/1343.aspx#sthash.GqpCLHLz.dpuf

If my math is correct, that works out to 11,187 per square km in 2031. As a comparison, downtown Vancouver and the West End have a population density of 17,138 per square km (2011). My first reaction is surprise as I would assume that density would give Surrey City Centre a very urban feel. However, I see that older 2006 figures for Metrotown have the population at 25,540 in 2.97 km2 so 8,599 per square km, so not terribly far off from where Surrey City Centre will be in 15 years. While dense, Metrotown doesn't feel like a true city, at least to me. Too many "towers in the park" and again, a ton of surface parking. I hope that Surrey does a better job in this regard.

Here's the February map of current development projects, in case that hasn't been posted:

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

Just to quote Shift who noted in the Park Avenue forum that a number of applications are underway in Surrey including Century Group's Holland Pointe.

Also found another rendering of the 46 storey 100 Ave project.

Source: http://www.dysarchitecture.com/projects/king-george-100th-avenue-development.php

This project has been on the books for basically 6 years now and had a DVP twice extended only to lapse (I believe the city only extends 2 times then you need to start again). They have started again this year with a new app but I'll believe _this_ project when I see them start to break ground.

Not holding my breath.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by rickvug

Poking around at http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/1343.aspx helps to get a better sense of development. Surrey's own projections:

In 2006, the population of Surrey City Centre totalled 23,000. In 2006, 14,500 people were employed in Surrey City Centre. It is anticipated that by 2031, the population of Surrey City Centre will increase to 65,000 and the number of people employed in Surrey City Centre will rise to 36,000. - See more at: http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/1343.aspx#sthash.GqpCLHLz.dpuf

If my math is correct, that works out to 11,187 per square km in 2031. As a comparison, downtown Vancouver and the West End have a population density of 17,138 per square km (2011). My first reaction is surprise as I would assume that density would give Surrey City Centre a very urban feel. However, I see that older 2006 figures for Metrotown have the population at 25,540 in 2.97 km2 so 8,599 per square km, so not terribly far off from where Surrey City Centre will be in 15 years. While dense, Metrotown doesn't feel like a true city, at least to me. Too many "towers in the park" and again, a ton of surface parking. I hope that Surrey does a better job in this regard.

Here's the February map of current development projects, in case that hasn't been posted:

<snip image>

Your last point hit it on the head. Density and population count doesn't actually matter, it is street level orientation. You could have a super dense high-rise filled area but if they are all "towers in the park" then it won't feel urban. Yet you go to cities like London for example where huge swaths are low level buildings 4-6 storey high at most yet every street feels super urban.

All comes down to the street scape.

So Surrey could easily have the same numbers as Metrotown but if they develop right, it will feel much different. Also look at Metrotown's latest projects and compare to older ones near Patterson. Big difference. So I'd imagine in 10 years Metrotown will feel far more urban than it does today just because their new projects are all street-oriented urban design.

That said, predictions of 2031 are just dreams we can hold on to. A lot can happen in that amount of time.

[Shift]

Burnaby is behind Surrey in developing a City Centre/Downtown plan for Metrotown. They are just getting started now on Phase 1 of their 'Downtown Development Plan' involving "Preliminary Vision, Principles, and Land Use Framework."

https://www.burnaby.ca/City-Services/Pol...s/Metrotown-Development-Plan-Update.html

New developments in Metrotown are already starting to feel more urban ahead of this plan, but the area is still lacking direction right now, and suffers from the pre-existing towers in the park, and the mall breaking up road connections over a large area in the centre of Metrotown.

Surrey City Centre will eventually feel more urban due to no pre-existing towers in the park, and because of the City Centre Plan. It's also over twice the size of the Metrotown Plan area.

[rickvug]

Surrey City Centre will eventually feel more urban due to no pre-existing towers in the park, and because of the City Centre Plan. It's also over twice the size of the Metrotown Plan area.

I think the keyword here is eventually. Burnaby has over 100 towers proposed or in construction right now. That might be spread across 4 town centres, but as stated earlier, these town centres are generally smaller in size than the Surrey plan. Metrotown is also substantially more built out than Surrey City Centre. Once that key mall site is redeveloped the feel of Metrotown should really change. That could happen in a 5-10 year timeframe if some of the rumours are true.

Don't take this as a knock on Surrey. I'm just trying to look at the pace of redevelopment objectively. Overall I'm very excited for what Metro Vancouver will look like a decade or two from now as the regional town centres mature. I think there will finally be a shift in people thinking first about Metro Vancouver rather than the City of Vancouver. For the next 10-15 years I think the most exciting places will be areas that are already established and aren't greenfield mall redevelopments (eg. North Van, New West, Port Moody). After that, spots like Surrey City Centre, Lougheed and Coquitlam should be the most exciting as (hopefully) all of that surface parking will be gone. Brentwood might happen a bit earlier considering the insane amount of development slated for the next 5 years.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by rickvug

Metrotown is also substantially more built out than Surrey City Centre. Once that key mall site is redeveloped the feel of Metrotown should really change. That could happen in a 5-10 year timeframe if some of the rumours are true.

I don't know where you heard a rumour of Metropolis being redeveloped. Yes Brentwood and Lougheed are / about to be redeveloped - they're also 20 to 25 years older. At Metropolis only Station Square (separate mall) and eventually the Sears site are being redeveloped. About 10 years ago the mall was made into a bigger brick than it was before (when it was two malls vs the one mall it is now).

[GMasterAres]

I honestly am not sold on Surrey Central ever surpassing Metrotown in our life time from an urban perspective unless SkyTrain is extended out to Langley. If you look at the transit backbone network, Metrotown is basically smack middle of Expo Line.

That helps drive business and residential development. Much like Brentwood is basically smack middle of Millennium Line.

If Expo Line is extended out to Langley then Surrey Central and Metrotown become central hubs for the backbone with Vancouver on one end and the Fraser Valley on the other. It better aligns the vision of Surrey as a second regional downtown for South of the Fraser/Fraser Valley, and I think will further push a wave of development beyond what we're seeing today.

Just my thoughts. Until then Surrey is trying hard but it will be difficult and time consuming to shake the sleeper residential suburb vibe of the city. Don't get me wrong I am excited for some of the projects ongoing and coming up, but we have a long way to go and quite frankly for every 1 major project in Surrey Central right now there are 2-3 in Brentwood and 2-3 in Metrotown.

Don't believe me? Look at Lougheed. It was just a fringe area, with some towers sure, but nothing substantial for a few decades until Evergreen extension really start to take off. Then suddenly it is in the position where Surrey is on Expo but on Millennium and magically a brand new master plan shows up on the books and movement starts.

[Pinion]

I think the Lougheed boom has more to do with the natural development progression from west to east than a skytrain to its east. That wave will hit Surrey eventually after Burnaby, Coquitlam and New West are built out, decades from now.

A skytrain to Langley will help of course though.

[Blease]

Originally Posted by jhausner

I honestly am not sold on Surrey Central ever surpassing Metrotown in our life time from an urban perspective unless SkyTrain is extended out to Langley. If Expo Line is extended out to Langley then Surrey Central and Metrotown become central hubs for the backbone with Vancouver on one end and the Fraser Valley on the other. It better aligns the vision of Surrey as a second regional downtown for South of the Fraser/Fraser Valley, and I think will further push a wave of development beyond what we're seeing today.

Surrey Central won't get the Expo line extended, but it will become a hub connecting the Expo Line with three LRT lines stretching deep into Fraser Valley. Also I somewhat disagree with your Surrey vs Burnaby assessment for one simple reason. There can only be a finite number of downtowns and Burnaby is much too close to Vancouver to develop (m)any substantial urban hubs. Brentwood for example is very nice, but it's essentially a town centre and I say that with no disrespect. Surrey Central may not have Whole Foods, but is developing a far more urban feel, albeit with a grittier edge. And Surrey Central has two important factors to consider, a burgeoning population (in the areas which surround it) and a substantial enough distance from Vancouver to establish a viable downtown.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by jhausner

If Expo Line is extended out to Langley then Surrey Central and Metrotown become central hubs for the backbone with Vancouver on one end and the Fraser Valley on the other. It better aligns the vision of Surrey as a second regional downtown for South of the Fraser/Fraser Valley, and I think will further push a wave of development beyond what we're seeing today.

Just my thoughts. Until then Surrey is trying hard but it will be difficult and time consuming to shake the sleeper residential suburb vibe of the city. Don't get me wrong I am excited for some of the projects ongoing and coming up, but we have a long way to go and quite frankly for every 1 major project in Surrey Central right now there are 2-3 in Brentwood and 2-3 in Metrotown.

Originally Posted by Blease

Brentwood for example is very nice, but it's essentially a town centre and I say that with no disrespect. Surrey Central may not have Whole Foods, but is developing a far more urban feel, albeit with a grittier edge. And Surrey Central has two important factors to consider, a burgeoning population (in the areas which surround it) and a substantial enough distance from Vancouver to establish a viable downtown.

I agree with parts of what you've both said. Vancouver has the 'northern' downtown and Surrey will have the 'southern' downtown. Burnaby will have town centres and while Metrotown will become a downtown, it will be for Burnaby and not the region as a whole (like Vancouver and Surrey).

Extending the Expo Line down Fraser Hwy will be an important part of driving development in Surrey, despite what the mayor may think. Why they want to cut the backbone short is something I've never been able to understand.