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  #9861  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 3:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Vielen vielen dank!

Hopefully this FINALLY puts to rest those who think YVR is lacking service or is getting screwed by AC.
I think YVR was getting screwed by AC, however unintentionally. I think they were still trying to develop conservatively post bankruptcy and the safest routes were those out of Toronto. Now that things have stabilized it seems they view Vancouver as the next best market to grow from. This can probably be attributed to the improvement in their fleet the last few years as well.
     
     
  #9862  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 3:23 AM
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I think YVR was getting screwed by AC, however unintentionally.
Completely disagree. Based on that one could argue any city not receiving any additional services from an airline is screwed. Look at the history of AC and YVR together and you will find based on YVR's population, geographical location, demographic mix and business market size, AC has allocated resources to YVR based on perceived economic performance. Clearly in better times, such as now, it wouldn't be surprising that AC is adding a lot of seats to the YVR market. An airline would be stupid to add capacity to a declining or slow growth market. Vancouver was never in decline of course but certainly the city's economic growth not that long ago was rather sluggish. Nothing to do with being screwed.
     
     
  #9863  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 3:48 AM
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Winter International Changes (Other Carriers)

So here are the changes to non-Air Canada International routes (NOT including tranborder or sun destinations). Transborder and Sun Destination flights seem to still be adjusting so I will leave them for now.

Comparisons to Winter 2015/2016. New services in bold.

Xiamen Air: *new* 3 weekly to XMN on 788

Beijing Capital Airlines: *new* 3 weekly to TAO and HGH on 332

China Eastern: overall increasing from 10 weekly to 14 weekly with 3 weekly going to be on a new route YVR-NKG-KMG 3x weekly and then 11x weekly YVR-PVG standalone. All scheduled to be on 332 aircraft.

Philippine Airlines: MNL increases from 7 weekly to 10 weekly with the re-introduction of twice weekly standalone YVR-MNL flights and an additional weekly YYZ-YVR-MNL flight. All services continue to be on 77Ws.

All Nippon Airways: 789 replacing 788 daily to HND

China Southern: 77W replacing 788 daily to CAN

Sichuan Airlines: change in routing where twice weekly will now go YVR-CGO-CTU and one weekly will remain YVR-SHE-CTU. No change in overall frequencies or equipment.

Aeromexico: increases from daily to 10 weekly to MEX. All services now on 73H aircraft versus a mix of 73W/73H last winter.

Qantas: maintaining 3 weekly to SYD but for a longer period this winter. Approximately 2-3 weeks longer. All services scheduled to be on 744s still.

Air New Zealand: daily flights to AKL will be for a longer period this winter as well. All services scheduled to be on 772s still.

KLM: reduces from 5 weekly to 4 weekly on 332s.

Air Transat: twice weekly to LGW for the entire winter season this year compared to the twice weekly comencing in mid February last winter.

Cathay Pacific: effective 28th March (so technically spring) an additonal three weekly flights per week to HKG on A359s. Total YVR-HKG on CX increases to 17 weekly.
     
     
  #9864  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 3:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Completely disagree. Based on that one could argue any city not receiving any additional services from an airline is screwed. Look at the history of AC and YVR together and you will find based on YVR's population, geographical location, demographic mix and business market size, AC has allocated resources to YVR based on perceived economic performance. Clearly in better times, such as now, it wouldn't be surprising that AC is adding a lot of seats to the YVR market. An airline would be stupid to add capacity to a declining or slow growth market. Vancouver was never in decline of course but certainly the city's economic growth not that long ago was rather sluggish. Nothing to do with being screwed.
Vancouver's economic outlook has been largely positive for the last 5 years, and even during the recessionary period, was not hit as hard as other places. Just 2 years ago AC was running E90's to LA and San Fran, no routes to San Diego, Palm Springs, Phoenix, Cancun, San Jose, Delhi, Chicago, Osaka, Dublin, and was running 763 to the majority of Asians destinations minus Hong Kong. So i do deem this as AC neglecting YVR however I believe it wasn't because they wanted to neglect the west coast, but because of Aircraft shortcomings and their own economics. With rouge freeing up mainline aircraft for new routes, as well as allowing numerous lower yielding routes to flourish, YVR has been able to attain many new routes. I believe AC would have implemented these long ago had they had the right stuff.
     
     
  #9865  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 4:19 AM
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Classic case of Economics 100/101 the allocation of scarce resources. Since the economy of Vancouver has done well and really well in the last two years plus the decline in the economy to the neighbour to the East as the shift in resources has occurred. So during the period of economic ramp up AC has been allocating more to YVR. I wouldn't have expected this 5 years ago. Takes a couple of years to recover before throwing too much into a hot fire. Also, of course the economics of the new equipment has been a big game changer. If these planes had been available five years ago, maybe some of these routes would have been added then, but since that wasn't the case, we will never know. In any event AC is just a business like any other that will put its resources where it thinks will make the best return.
     
     
  #9866  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 4:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Classic case of Economics 100/101 the allocation of scarce resources. Since the economy of Vancouver has done well and really well in the last two years plus the decline in the economy to the neighbour to the East as the shift in resources has occurred. So during the period of economic ramp up AC has been allocating more to YVR. I wouldn't have expected this 5 years ago. Takes a couple of years to recover before throwing too much into a hot fire. Also, of course the economics of the new equipment has been a big game changer. If these planes had been available five years ago, maybe some of these routes would have been added then, but since that wasn't the case, we will never know. In any event AC is just a business like any other that will put its resources where it thinks will make the best return.
Yes i completely agree with all of that. However I don't see how this stance conflicts with the fact YVR was widely neglected by AC for about a decade before the last two years. It seems apparent YVR could support more routes then it was supporting for years. I don't think the demand for travel to the aforementioned 10 cities happens overnight, which means whether or not it is AC, the Federal government, or other carriers, YVR was certainly under utilized for years. It also appeared AC and the Federal government blocked numerous airlines inroads into western Canada in order to protect AC from competition. Don't know the full fact pattern on this one.
     
     
  #9867  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 4:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CareerShow View Post
Yes i completely agree with all of that. However I don't see how this stance conflicts with the fact YVR was widely neglected by AC for about a decade before the last two years. It seems apparent YVR could support more routes then it was supporting for years. I don't think the demand for travel to the aforementioned 10 cities happens overnight, which means whether or not it is AC, the Federal government, or other carriers, YVR was certainly under utilized for years. It also appeared AC and the Federal government blocked numerous airlines inroads into western Canada in order to protect AC from competition. Don't know the full fact pattern on this one.
I don't think AC and/or the Federal Government's blocking of various airlines was necessarily targeted at Western Canada. In fact, one can argue a lot of what they have blocked has helped them in the East. Examples of course are the ME3 by restricting the number of frequencies into Canada as a whole. I don't want to drag this up too much again as it has been discussed ad nauseum (like many topics on here!). But AC and/or the Federal Gov't were "protecting" their hub at YYZ mainly as allowing more access into YYZ would have a big impact on some of AC's routes to Europe. The statements made by Emirates (in particular) about YVR and YYC was most likely just a political game to encourage lobbying out west when their main intention was more access to YYZ. That is just my opinion but absolutely if AC has the power to lobby the government to protect its business? Of course it would but in as private a way as possible so it doesn't appear it is favouring one region over the other. It is more of favouring the protection of a global hub that is still developing.
The most recent alleged blocking is of course the latest round of China-Canada bilaterals. China wanted more access but allegedly AC lobbied against the increase as clearly the increase in Chinese airlines access to Canada would have a big impact on AC services. This affects every airport in Canada and not just YVR. Clearly most of the new services by Chinese airlines have targeted YVR but that is certainly not to say there were other routes being pursued. Now, due to the cap not being raised, growth will be at a standstill for at least two to three years unless talks somehow schedule earlier.
As for the current 10 cities where the demand appeared to have occurred overnight... each route would be analysed on a constant basis and with ever changing market conditions and forces the NPV of running the numbers may have been very close to being positive for many routes. Then all of a sudden with the conditions right, many routes may tip into positive territory with just a change in one or two factors. So I still stand by my opinion that based on the allocation of resources model, that's why we have seen so much so quickly. The conditions are NOW strong enough for these increases to occur.

This is what is happening now with YVR-SIN and YVR-BKK (among others ) AC is apparently still pursuing these routes with their forecasting models. There must be some credence to the numbers for them to be looking so closely. However, if the conditions keep coming back with a negative NPV, they won't be launching. There will be a minimum benchmark they would have... if this is met and the aircraft is available, then it's a go.

Last edited by Johnny Aussie; Sep 20, 2016 at 6:16 AM.
     
     
  #9868  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 5:01 AM
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Very well said. Couldn't agree more. Do you think AC will maintain double daily next summer or will BA recommence more than one daily to LHR?
     
     
  #9869  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 6:28 AM
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Very well said. Couldn't agree more. Do you think AC will maintain double daily next summer or will BA recommence more than one daily to LHR?
One thing we know so far is BA will be bringing back the A380 but will start it a bit later next year. The equipment switches from 744 to 388 on 1st of June. This year the 388 kicked off on 1st of May. Another indication of just how seasonal YVR-Europe is.

Right now the second daily AC to LHR is on the books and is scheduled to re-commence 31st May 2017. This is a whole day earlier than this year! Ha! However, that is more likely because of AC's summer schedule start date next year. It's also showing as a daily 787-9 instead of the current 787-8. If you recall when the second flight was announced it was originally planned to be a 787-9 only to be downgauged fairly quickly. AC is notorious (like most carriers really though) for keeping the status quo schedules for the next year until finalised. However, if the flight was a complete disaster I think AC would just remove it anyway so there is the possibility it will return.
     
     
  #9870  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CareerShow View Post
Yes i completely agree with all of that. However I don't see how this stance conflicts with the fact YVR was widely neglected by AC for about a decade before the last two years. It seems apparent YVR could support more routes then it was supporting for years. I don't think the demand for travel to the aforementioned 10 cities happens overnight, which means whether or not it is AC, the Federal government, or other carriers, YVR was certainly under utilized for years. It also appeared AC and the Federal government blocked numerous airlines inroads into western Canada in order to protect AC from competition. Don't know the full fact pattern on this one.
You have to go back to when AC and Canadian merged. They were both flying half empty aircraft in many cases on the same route at the same time. Back then I was a regular on the Vancouver to Ottawa flight. Usually a A320 or 737 depending on airline. You had a good chance of having the middle seat empty on most flights. Soon after the merge there was a drop in flights as Air Canada right sized. Many of the historical long-haul Canadian routes out of Vancouver (that likely were not money makers) were also dropped around that time.

AC up-gaging the aircraft to Asia has been a slow process over many years. Even Australia several years ago was a 767 with a stop in Hawaii.

Canada has open skies with Europe and the US. Nothing has been stopping ANA or JAL from increasing service to Canada. Nothing was stopping a host of Australian, New Zealand and south pacific airlines from serving Vancouver.

Where Canada has had some protection has been the middle east airlines and Singapore. However the louses with those are more likely to be Korean Airlines or British Airways than AC.
     
     
  #9871  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 7:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Completely disagree. Based on that one could argue any city not receiving any additional services from an airline is screwed. Look at the history of AC and YVR together and you will find based on YVR's population, geographical location, demographic mix and business market size, AC has allocated resources to YVR based on perceived economic performance. Clearly in better times, such as now, it wouldn't be surprising that AC is adding a lot of seats to the YVR market. An airline would be stupid to add capacity to a declining or slow growth market. Vancouver was never in decline of course but certainly the city's economic growth not that long ago was rather sluggish. Nothing to do with being screwed.
I kinda agree with CareerShow, the YVR neglect was not out of spite but market driven, and all relative to YVR's previous status as the dominant hub of CP Air/ Canadian airlines.

Look at Westjet and oil-downturn-YYC. YYC passenger numbers are slightly positive despite a bad economy and i suspect that is due to WJ's (and to a lesser extent AC's) efforts to support its YYC hub. WJ will continue its problematic LGW service in winter out of YYC and much of that traffic will come from WJ transit passengers from western canada. WJ did add capacity to a (currently) slow-growth market and in the short-term may not make economic sense, but because YYC is WJ's most important hub it may make sense strategically. Prior to Canadian folding, YVR was its primary hub.
     
     
  #9872  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 7:21 AM
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Notes from a recent intl trip:

-not to sound ungrateful, but if AC is finally considering making YVR a bigger hub, it really needs to make the MLL larger (domestic, transborder, intl - all of them), perhaps even with shower facilities.

- no WC at intl arrivals until just before passport control? those washrooms are small compared to the people it receives and it doesn't present well - worn out carpet around the WCs and, well, a heavily used WC vibe. I hope they rectify this with future terminal expansion.

-new ads leaving baggage claim! T&T and Westbank.
     
     
  #9873  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 3:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
So here are the changes to non-Air Canada International routes (NOT including tranborder or sun destinations). Transborder and Sun Destination flights seem to still be adjusting so I will leave them for now.

Comparisons to Winter 2015/2016. New services in bold.

Xiamen Air: *new* 3 weekly to XMN on 788

Beijing Capital Airlines: *new* 3 weekly to TAO and HGH on 332

China Eastern: overall increasing from 10 weekly to 14 weekly with 3 weekly going to be on a new route YVR-NKG-KMG 3x weekly and then 11x weekly YVR-PVG standalone. All scheduled to be on 332 aircraft.

Philippine Airlines: MNL increases from 7 weekly to 10 weekly with the re-introduction of twice weekly standalone YVR-MNL flights and an additional weekly YYZ-YVR-MNL flight. All services continue to be on 77Ws.

All Nippon Airways: 789 replacing 788 daily to HND

China Southern: 77W replacing 788 daily to CAN

Sichuan Airlines: change in routing where twice weekly will now go YVR-CGO-CTU and one weekly will remain YVR-SHE-CTU. No change in overall frequencies or equipment.

Aeromexico: increases from daily to 10 weekly to MEX. All services now on 73H aircraft versus a mix of 73W/73H last winter.

Qantas: maintaining 3 weekly to SYD but for a longer period this winter. Approximately 2-3 weeks longer. All services scheduled to be on 744s still.

Air New Zealand: daily flights to AKL will be for a longer period this winter as well. All services scheduled to be on 772s still.

KLM: reduces from 5 weekly to 4 weekly on 332s.

Air Transat: twice weekly to LGW for the entire winter season this year compared to the twice weekly comencing in mid February last winter.

Cathay Pacific: effective 28th March (so technically spring) an additonal three weekly flights per week to HKG on A359s. Total YVR-HKG on CX increases to 17 weekly.
Is anyone serving Singapore out of YVR, or anywhere in Canada, for that matter? Is there the market for it? Would be nice to see someone, perhaps WS (when they get their wide body fleet properly improved/expanded), service SIN out of YVR/YYC, if the traffic demand is there.
     
     
  #9874  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 3:04 PM
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If anyone does, it will be Air Canada.
     
     
  #9875  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 3:36 PM
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So, will Sichuan bring their new A350s to YVR?
     
     
  #9876  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Vielen vielen dank!

Hopefully this FINALLY puts to rest those who think YVR is lacking service or is getting screwed by AC.
Warum sprichst du Deutsch?

This may simply be a perception, but the relationship between YVR and AC these days does seem stronger and more collaborative than in years past. I distinctly recall Calin Rovanescu addressing the VBOT a few years back to specifically make the case that a strong YVR required a strong hub airline (ie AC). Why do this if not to make a point and combat certain perceptions?

Water under the bridge anyway. It's good to see AC growing its hub in Vancouver.
     
     
  #9877  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by YYCguys View Post
Is anyone serving Singapore out of YVR, or anywhere in Canada, for that matter? Is there the market for it? Would be nice to see someone, perhaps WS (when they get their wide body fleet properly improved/expanded), service SIN out of YVR/YYC, if the traffic demand is there.
It would be shocking to see Westjet serve Singapore within the next 10 years. They have numerous hurdles in place before being able to serve a destination none of the legacy carriers have served in years. Although I am curious to see if WS chooses, when they do, to expand out of YVR or YYC for asian travel. YVR obviously has more demand, but YYC is fairly uncontested minus Hainan, and AC.

Last edited by CareerShow; Sep 20, 2016 at 5:34 PM.
     
     
  #9878  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by YYCguys View Post
Is anyone serving Singapore out of YVR, or anywhere in Canada, for that matter? Is there the market for it? Would be nice to see someone, perhaps WS (when they get their wide body fleet properly improved/expanded), service SIN out of YVR/YYC, if the traffic demand is there.
See this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
This is what is happening now with YVR-SIN and YVR-BKK (among others ) AC is apparently still pursuing these routes with their forecasting models. There must be some credence to the numbers for them to be looking so closely. However, if the conditions keep coming back with a negative NPV, they won't be launching. There will be a minimum benchmark they would have... if this is met and the aircraft is available, then it's a go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
So, will Sichuan bring their new A350s to YVR?
As far as I'm aware Sichuan isn't getting any A350s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourglass View Post
Warum sprichst du Deutsch?

This may simply be a perception, but the relationship between YVR and AC these days does seem stronger and more collaborative than in years past. I distinctly recall Calin Rovanescu addressing the VBOT a few years back to specifically make the case that a strong YVR required a strong hub airline (ie AC). Why do this if not to make a point and combat certain perceptions?

Water under the bridge anyway. It's good to see AC growing its hub in Vancouver.
������
Yes, Vancouver's economy along with some other factors have now made these new routes viable and AC is jumping on them. His address about the hub was his way of countering the restrictions on other airlines accessing YVR. Which of course AC is probably the biggest lobbier against them (see my comments above). His aim was to convince the audience that only AC would be able to make YVR the powerhouse that it is becoming. Of course all the other new airlines that have come online must see that a little differently. YVR has actually managed to develop so many new routes with new airlines without a fortress hub... And that's probably why. We all knew the Dreamliner/A350 would be game changers. YVR has and will continue to benefit from these aircraft.

Last edited by Johnny Aussie; Sep 20, 2016 at 9:00 PM.
     
     
  #9879  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 8:39 PM
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As far as I'm aware Sichuan isn't getting any A350s?
The deal was signed yesterday. Four leased A350s to be delivered on 2017.
     
     
  #9880  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2016, 8:43 PM
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YVR seems to have critical mass as far as int'l long hall routes goes. I think it would be hard for Calgary to catch up.

I think YvR should be using some sort of covered loading structures for all ground load positions( pier A & the Ac area (C)

one of gates 90-92 should be fitted an adapter so Alaska & any other Turbo prop operator has a proper loading bridge 90-92 fit an rj 700 wit out an adapter.
     
     
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