Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Talking about Seattle, did they already manage to fix Alice(?).

Bertha's progress: The highlights (and low points) of the massive project

In comparison the problems that happened here were pretty minor.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by deasine

Aside from increased "operational risk" with problems and decrease in resiliency, interlining does actually affects frequency or the potential thereof. This doesn't necessarily apply to Vancouver per say given the relative simplicity of its system, but using London as an example, the Circle Line actually has terrible frequencies even during the peak, and it's really due to the nature of excessive interlining with the District, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines.

Interlining on an automated system is what you want as long as it's not to reduce costs. Because it allows moving capacity to where it's needed. So we can always turn up or down the capacity on Expo/Millenium/Evergreen/UBC segments by moving trains around, but we can't do that with the Canada Line. So if the Canada Line is over-crowded, SOL.

Which is to say this is why you want all one technology and why the Surrey wanting surface LRT is a mistake. We don't need yet another incompatible technology with it's own unique problems. When you use all the same rolling stock, you get better economies of scale.

However the lack of a third-track down the Expo Line, is a bit of a detriment, especially when there is a desire for 24 hour service. I don't see a third track being added to any of the extensions either.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Interlining on an automated system is what you want as long as it's not to reduce costs. Because it allows moving capacity to where it's needed. So we can always turn up or down the capacity on Expo/Millenium/Evergreen/UBC segments by moving trains around, but we can't do that with the Canada Line. So if the Canada Line is over-crowded, SOL.

There's a difference between "interlining" and simply connecting all your lines to one network. Interlining in this case refers to operating two or more lines using the same set of tracks as opposed to having independent operating tracks. Having one network has its advantages, yes, but the Canada Line would not have been able to take advantage of moving capacity/trains on demand even if it used SkyTrain Technology; it would have been operated by a different consortium and thus a different level of service contract.

Originally Posted by Kisai

However the lack of a third-track down the Expo Line, is a bit of a detriment, especially when there is a desire for 24 hour service. I don't see a third track being added to any of the extensions either.

There is a desire in media but it doesn't mean that it will be financially sustainable (or political will at this point in time). Even a big city like London has taken this long to have a 24h system for Friday and Saturdays. Under current service schemes, there is no business case to support a third track scheme. There is more than enough capacity with the current 2-track configuration. And with increased privatisation (Canada Line being an example), there needs to be a supporting business case. Just as at the time the Canada Line was under planning, the private partners decided on a way to achieve ridership projections using a low-risk, low-intensive capital approach. In hindsight, many in this forum debate whether or not the line was underbuilt: short platforms, short trains, etc. But as others have highlighted before, from a capacity perspective, there is still room to add capacity to deliver its full potential.

[casper]

Originally Posted by deasine

There's a difference between "interlining" and simply connecting all your lines to one network. Interlining in this case refers to operating two or more lines using the same set of tracks as opposed to having independent operating tracks. Having one network has its advantages, yes, but the Canada Line would not have been able to take advantage of moving capacity/trains on demand even if it used SkyTrain Technology; it would have been operated by a different consortium and thus a different level of service contract.



There is a desire in media but it doesn't mean that it will be financially sustainable (or political will at this point in time). Even a big city like London has taken this long to have a 24h system for Friday and Saturdays. Under current service schemes, there is no business case to support a third track scheme. There is more than enough capacity with the current 2-track configuration. And with increased privatisation (Canada Line being an example), there needs to be a supporting business case. Just as at the time the Canada Line was under planning, the private partners decided on a way to achieve ridership projections using a low-risk, low-intensive capital approach. In hindsight, many in this forum debate whether or not the line was underbuilt: short platforms, short trains, etc. But as others have highlighted before, from a capacity perspective, there is still room to add capacity to deliver its full potential.

When you do get to the point of being able to justify a third track I would expect the argument turns to. Do we build a second parallel line a few miles away and help expand the network and shift some of the traffic. For example if Expo line in Vancouver becomes crowed the next logical step is to build a Kingsway line. That said, I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by MIPS

To anyone from out of town the map makes no goddamn sense.

They said take the Expo Line to Surrey, but does this train go to Surrey, or to Production Way/University??

Why is this an extension if I have to switch trains at Lougheed?

How much crystal meth have these people smoked?

It's not like the current map isn't confusing to people.

You have no idea how many times I've been on the platform downtown and heard someone say to their travelling companion: "No, don't get on this train, it doesn't go to Metrotown"

One line of the same color is easier to read than one line with 2 colors, that split, then one color goes all the way back around to and under where the 2 colors are.

In all my travels I've never seen anyone confused by the Canada Line map.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'd lean more towards Surrey as well. Above ground construction offers more photo ops, combined with Christy Clark not caring about Vancouver at all (ok, all of metro Van, but CoV more than the rest).

Political motivation would suggest Surrey will go next, supported by the massive growth in that City.

I wonder now that the Feds are 50% contributing partners (up from 33%) if they will have more say than the Province as to which project goes first, other than just saying "this money is for ______".

I imagine that the Feds may want to go forward with both projects around the same time, but the issue is more about whether or not the Province and Translink can contribute there portions of funding at the same time. Even at only 17% required for Translink, that is still a lot of money to pony up for the 2 projects from an agency that really struggles financially.

[NetMapel]

With regards to Evergreen line, what are the chances that they will eventually extend its trains to run on the millennium line instead of stopping at Lougheed station ? Seems like it'll be a crazy amount of new users to be shoved onto the millennium line going towards VCC-Clark without adding new trains to it. Having Evergreen line trains run on there as well makes sense as it'll basically double the trains in that stretch of the millennium line. Eventually I assumed they want extend that line to UBC or something, so it further makes sense for Evergreen line to run along millennium line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

With regards to Evergreen line, what are the chances that they will eventually extend its trains to run on the millennium line instead of stopping at Lougheed station ?

There is no such thing as an "Evergreen line" - you need to read the prior posts on this subject in this forum. "Millenium line" trains will run between the western terminus at VCC-Clarke through Lougheed and onward via the "Evergreen extension" to the eastern terminus of the line at the Lafarge Lake / Douglas station.

Translink has already purchased seven additional trainsets to cover the increased ridership and extension, and as I understand it they've also exercised their option to buy a further seven trainsets.

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

There is no such thing as an "Evergreen line" - you need to read the prior posts on this subject in this forum. "Millenium line" trains will run between the western terminus at VCC-Clarke through Lougheed and onward via the "Evergreen extension" to the eastern terminus of the line at the Lafarge Lake / Douglas station.

Translink has already purchased seven additional trainsets to cover the increased ridership and extension, and as I understand it they've also exercised their option to buy a further seven trainsets.

Ah ok so you're saying that when the Evergreen extension comes online, M-line trains will either be going Waterfront of Lafarge Lake station ? So, it's similar to that of Expo line where it interchanges between King George or VCC-Clarke ?

Is so, that's exactly what I had in mind with regards to this Evergreen extension. My friends and I were just talking about it the other day. He said he read that it will function as its own line and stops at Lougheed station. I thought that would have been a bad thing to do.

[excel]

The Millennium Line train will start from VCC Clark, not Waterfront.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

Ah ok so you're saying that when the Evergreen extension comes online, M-line trains will either be going Waterfront of Lafarge Lake station ? So, it's similar to that of Expo line where it interchanges between King George or VCC-Clarke ?

Is so, that's exactly what I had in mind with regards to this Evergreen extension. My friends and I were just talking about it the other day. He said he read that it will function as its own line and stops at Lougheed station. I thought that would have been a bad thing to do.

The green lines around the yellow just show where the new extension is - Millennium and Evergreen will be one line. Expo and Canada lines will both be branched lines.

[Trainguy]

Once this all opens, Broadway is going to be an even bigger bottleneck than it is now from all the new traffic from the M-extension. They should do more Waterfront-Metrotown or Waterfront-Broadway quick turnarounds to alleviate the morning rush. Since it is a computer driven system, these changes are simple and easy to program. Once the rush is over, they can park these quick turn trains until needed again without interrupting the regular end to end trains.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

Ah ok so you're saying that when the Evergreen extension comes online, M-line trains will either be going Waterfront of Lafarge Lake station ? So, it's similar to that of Expo line where it interchanges between King George or VCC-Clark ?

Nope - read my post again. Millennium Line trains will run between VCC-Clark and Lafarge Lake / Douglas - they won't go anywhere near Waterfront and they won't see Braid or Sapperton Stations. The only trains that will go downtown will be Expo Line trains (and Canada Line, of course). There will be no "splitting" of trains on the Millennium line - they'll all travel the same route.

Only Expo line trains will "split" after Columbia with 2/3 of them going to Surrey and the rest of them going via Sapperton and Braid and terminating at Production Way / University. So some Expo Line trains will share track with the Millennium Line trains but only between Lougheed and Production Way / University.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Might as well link to the new map. Hope it helps.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Might as well link to the new map. Hope it helps.

Seemed redundant as it's actually included in the post above mine...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Seemed redundant as it's actually included in the post above mine...

Whoops - yeah, now I see it. If that isn't simple enough to understand, I don't know what is.

[excel]

Whats the main reason for the Expo line extending past Lougheed and going to University? Easier access for people from South Burnaby, New West and Surrey to access SFU?

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Might as well link to the new map. Hope it helps.

i dont see what is so hard about this. this is such a simple map, how can people not understand it?

Millennium-Line goes from VCC-Clark to Lafarge Lake-Douglas

Expo-Line 1 goes from Waterfront to Production Way-University
Expo-Line 2 goes from Waterfront to King George

Canada-Line 1 goes from Waterfront to YVR - Airport
Canada-Line 2 goes from Waterfront to Richmond-Brighouse

why is this so complicated?!?!

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by excel

Whats the main reason for the Expo line extending past Lougheed and going to University? Easier access for people from South Burnaby, New West and Surrey to access SFU?

Well it's got to go at least as far as Lougheed in order to connect Braid and Sapperton to the rest of the network. And my guess is that since SFU is such a high volume destination it makes sense to

(a) carry Expo Line passengers that far so they don't have to change trains,

(b) provide higher connecting frequencies for SFU-bound passengers that board at Lougheed, and

(c) as I understand how trains will operate through Lougheed it also simplifies the passenger routing there since it will give a dedicated platform for each of the three separate destinations: VCC-Clark, Lafarge-Lake/Douglas, and Waterfront (via Expo through Columbia).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by excel

Whats the main reason for the Expo line extending past Lougheed and going to University? Easier access for people from South Burnaby, New West and Surrey to access SFU?

It's to provide a transfer to the Burnaby Gondola - the study recommends a station at either Production Way or Lake City.