Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Meraki

Lowest bidder tenders don't care about such things!

I don't think anyone cares what the inside of a tunnel looks like...

[SkytrainCar026]

Test train caught by the construction camera again! (this time near Port Moody Station)



Source: http://wcs.pbaeng.com/projects/R1_Transit

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by MIPS

IF you look closely you can see he's standing on some sort of concrete median and there's metal brackets along the wall below the handrail. Presumably there's a cable pit running parallel with the track but the metal panels are not yet installed.

Also that tunnel feels really narrow. The Dunsmuir and Columbia tunnels are not much taller than the trains but that one looks like it's at least 15' high.

That's what happens when you use one round tube to hold two tracks.

All the other skytrain tunnels were built (or retrofitted) to be wide and tall enough to hold the square-ish train cars.

Next time you have an empty pringles can, try to slide in two 1" square pegs and you'll see how much space is wasted on the sides and top (the bottom would be filled in to level out the space for the tracks &tc)

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

That's what happens when you use one round tube to hold two tracks.

All the other skytrain tunnels were built (or retrofitted) to be wide and tall enough to hold the square-ish train cars.

Next time you have an empty pringles can, try to slide in two 1" square pegs and you'll see how much space is wasted on the sides and top (the bottom would be filled in to level out the space for the tracks &tc)

The only other tunnel is the Dunsmuir tunnel. It was originally a heavy-rail tunnel that they cut in half to stack the MK I style cars, it wasn't made any wider. This is why the MK I cars are the size they are, wider cars would have required making the tunnel wider, and conventional LRT cars would have required to make them deeper.

The Canada Line was cut and cover other than the part under downtown.
Source: http://www.okthepk.ca/publicArchive/200711canadaLine/cLine00.htm

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The only other tunnel is the Dunsmuir tunnel. It was originally a heavy-rail tunnel that they cut in half to stack the MK I style cars, it wasn't made any wider. This is why the MK I cars are the size they are, wider cars would have required making the tunnel wider, and conventional LRT cars would have required to make them deeper.

That doesn't seem right. The Dunsmuir Tunnel was built to the loading gauge of mainline freight and passenger trains, which are substantially wider than skytrain equipment.

Given that the TTC was inquiring if Translink would part with Mark Is to replace their slightly older SRT rolling stock, I suspect that the skytrain form factor is simply what UTDC was offering at the time

[Mac Write]

If Translink parted with a good chunk of Mark I's for the SRT then we get more Mark III's!!!!!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

If Translink parted with a good chunk of Mark I's for the SRT then we get more Mark III's!!!!!

Toronto is spending billions to get rid of the SRT

[red-paladin]

Yeah the size of the UTDC Mk I trains was based on the already under construction Scarborough guideway.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

That doesn't seem right. The Dunsmuir Tunnel was built to the loading gauge of mainline freight and passenger trains, which are substantially wider than skytrain equipment.

Loading gauges change all the time... what was the norm then might not be so today.

It's also possible that they might have narrowed the lower (outbound) tunnel a little to add support columns for the upper (inbound) tunnel without having to eat away a substantial chunk of the tunnel walls to do so. This would have saved a lot of money in the building of the initial phase... not to mention that few people at the time predicted that SkyTrain would be the runaway success story that it is today.

EDIT: red-paladin seems to have a more valid explanation than I do... but in any case one decision led to another and hence the restricted loading gauge of our SkyTrains today.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

That doesn't seem right. The Dunsmuir Tunnel was built to the loading gauge of mainline freight and passenger trains, which are substantially wider than skytrain equipment.

Given that the TTC was inquiring if Translink would part with Mark Is to replace their slightly older SRT rolling stock, I suspect that the skytrain form factor is simply what UTDC was offering at the time

Different regulations. They had to add in the walkway into the existing tunnel. I'm pretty sure they didn't worry about that in the 1910s.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Different regulations. They had to add in the walkway into the existing tunnel. I'm pretty sure they didn't worry about that in the 1910s.

Original tunnel under construction
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/construction-progress-photo-of-cpr-dunsmuir-tunnel-2

Original tunnel completed
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/construction-progress-photo-of-cpr-dunsmuir-tunnel-9

Earlier in this thread http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=4732632 :




Compare (LIM vs conventional Subway and LRT):
source: http://ss7.inet-osaka.or.jp/~teraoka/old/tera98/ml98edit.htm


Incidently there's an entire document on transit tunnels here


The point I was trying to make was in regards to the cube in a pringles can comment. The original tunnel wasn't retrofitted to fit two cars side-by-side, it was retrofitted to re-use the tunnel period (and likely save construction time.) It was likely a key decision in picking the ALRT technology at the time since a regular LRT would have required excavation of far more depth of the tunnel and reinforcing it, or building a parallel tunnel side-by-side. Or knowing our government of the time, probably would have just single-tracked ended it at Stadium and built a parallel tunnel and there would have been no millennium line.

It's impossible to know what would have happened had the SoCred government at the time not been in love with capital projects.

[xd_1771]

I do believe in the original '70s era LRT plans (pre ALRT selection) the Dunsmuir Tunnel wasn't even a consideration at that point; planners were looking at building a whole new tunnel from just east of Stadium Station to Waterfront and without servicing today's Granville and Burrard Stations, or the immediate area. And, it would have certainly cost more than what we've ended up with.

Granville and Burrard Stations today are very critical access points to the entire downtown peninsula, and we really have to credit ALRT and its enabling of the reuse of the Dunsmuir Tunnel for giving us these transit hubs in the heart of our city and making sure there's balanced access to the whole DT peninsula.

[Jimbo604]

Evergreen Line on track for 2017 completion - CKNW.com posted: August 18, 2016 03:30 pm

“The project is very much on track.”
That’s what TransLink CEO Kevin Desmond says about the Evergreen Line, an 11-kilometer extension of the SkyTrain line through the Tri-Cities.

“There’s still many start up activation issues that have to be worked out, the project is very much on track and I think we will be able to collectively talk about the start date fairly soon.”

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Loading gauges change all the time... what was the norm then might not be so today.

It's also possible that they might have narrowed the lower (outbound) tunnel a little to add support columns for the upper (inbound) tunnel without having to eat away a substantial chunk of the tunnel walls to do so. This would have saved a lot of money in the building of the initial phase... not to mention that few people at the time predicted that SkyTrain would be the runaway success story that it is today.

EDIT: red-paladin seems to have a more valid explanation than I do... but in any case one decision led to another and hence the restricted loading gauge of our SkyTrains today.

What I do remember, other than the stacking is they moved the South portal eastward maybe 50 meters. You can actually still see it on the west side of Costco. The old rail tunnel alignment had an almost south west portal.

BTW that tunnel was built because the access to the False creek yard was across gas town. Part of the right of way is still visible, e.g. pigeon park, etc. There are archive picture of steam engines crossing Hastings street

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

BTW that tunnel was built because the access to the False creek yard was across gas town. Part of the right of way is still visible, e.g. pigeon park, etc. There are archive picture of steam engines crossing Hastings street

The central/main hall of International Village is where the ROW used to pass through.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Yeah the size of the UTDC Mk I trains was based on the already under construction Scarborough guideway.

I also think (without any references) that as an "urban" elevated rapid transit system, the cars were designed to be short and small like Chicago's El system, to navigate elevated guideways with sharp turns. That doesn't really favour a wide vehicle.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The cross section on the bottom looks a bit different from my mental image. I believe MIPS was saying the tunnel width was the limiting factor for not using a wider trainset.



As you can see above, the escapeway is still fairly wide. I think there has to be room for a person walking outside the dynamic envelope of the train to meet safety regulations. When the train is going around the smallest turning radius is when this would use up the most of the tunnel cross section.



You can see above, that there is space outside the dyanmic envelope for a person. Different jurisdiction maybe? I've got some people around my office I can ask.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

What I do remember, other than the stacking is they moved the South portal eastward maybe 50 meters. You can actually still see it on the west side of Costco. The old rail tunnel alignment had an almost south west portal.

BTW that tunnel was built because the access to the False creek yard was across gas town. Part of the right of way is still visible, e.g. pigeon park, etc. There are archive picture of steam engines crossing Hastings street

this:




http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/photo...st-portal-mile-130-2-cascade-subdivision


above the portal is the old Georgia Street viaduct, and behind that is the roof of the Beatty Armoury.

The curve of the tunnel from this portal to Dunsmuir is still under the former Greyhound block (future library) and Beatty St. the rest of the tunnel was demolished for the new condos at Georgia/Beatty.

There is supposed to be an access hatch on the condo parking lowest level so annual inspections can be done.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Toronto is spending billions to get rid of the SRT

The last I heard, they are spending $3 billion on extending the Bloor-Danforth subway one stop from Kennedy to Scarborough town centre.

There is already construction of the Eglington LRT that will end at Kennedy.

After the subway extension, then the Scarborough RT (same as our Skytrain) can be scrapped. Since it may take 10 to 15 (or more) years to complete the subway extension, I won't be surprised if plans change.

They've already suggested having the old Mk I cars scrapped and replaced with -- hold your pants -- streetcars. Exactly like what they started building 35+ years ago before their premier decided to save jobs in Thunder Bay by creating UTDC and he needed a 'showcase' project to sell their trains.

Recently there was a suggestion to connect the SRT tracks at Kennedy to the Eglington LRT instead of extending the subway to Scarborough town center.

Problem was this would mean closing the SRT for the nearly 5 years it would take to retrofit all the tracks and stations to use the Eglinton LRT cars, meaning everyone would be bus-tituted to/from Kennedy during this time.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The last I heard, they are spending $3 billion on extending the Bloor-Danforth subway one stop from Kennedy to Scarborough town centre.

There is already construction of the Eglington LRT that will end at Kennedy.

After the subway extension, then the Scarborough RT (same as our Skytrain) can be scrapped. Since it may take 10 to 15 (or more) years to complete the subway extension, I won't be surprised if plans change.

They've already suggested having the old Mk I cars scrapped and replaced with -- hold your pants -- streetcars. Exactly like what was they started building 35+ years ago before their premier decided to save jobs in Thunder Bay by creating UTDC and needed a 'showcase' project to sell their trains.

there was a suggestion to connect the SRT tracks at Kennedy to the Eglington LRT instead of extending the subway to Scarborogh town center.

Problem was it would mean closing the SRT for the nearly 5 years it would take to retrofit all the tracks and stations to use the Eglinton LRT cars, meaning everyone would be bus-tituted to/from Kennedy during this time.

That is what I meant.

Realistically, it would be nice if the subway was extended to Scarborough Town Centre and then convert the SRT to the Crosstown.

Not going to happen, but still would be nice.