Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by king10

in the end they ran out of time and kept it in the same location. the budget was pretty small at $150 million. no doubt the finished produce reflects that. if they had another $50 million or $100 million it would look more like regina or winnipeg. unfortunately that much money was never going to be funded. what Hamilton got is a decent serviceable stadium that can make the ticats profitable long into the future. World Class it is not, but it gets the job done. (despite the current construction lawsuits)

So the City of Hamilton owns the stadium right? Any idea what they charge the ticats for use of the stadium? How keeps the revenue from concessions and parking and suites?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I was a little disappointed by Hamilton's stadium mainly because Hamilton has been a traditionally strong football city (despite the indifference of the rest of the Golden Horseshoe area),

Yeah, Hamilton is a pretty good market for the Ticats and the CFL but I'd say the percentage of CFL haters relative to population is higher than on the Prairies. So a more lavish stadium (not tied to an international event) would have raised a big hue and cry: "A new stadium for the CFL? WTF? NOBODY watches the CFL anymore!!!!"

This is also the case in Ottawa, though its prevelance is likely somewhere in between Hamilton and the Prairies.

[king10]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

So the City of Hamilton owns the stadium right? Any idea what they charge the ticats for use of the stadium? How keeps the revenue from concessions and parking and suites?

http://www2.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/BF21F3C0-F0A6-417E-B8AB-5690E0C6EAD0/0/Feb1983PW14021.pdf

9) Financial Terms
The Tiger-Cats agree to pay the City annual payments subject to the following terms:
A guaranteed Naming Rights payment of $750,000 (non-indexed) per year for the
duration of the License Agreement to be used to offset capital construction costs.
A guaranteed payment of $450,000 (indexed annually beginning in 2016 and
continuing for each license year) per year for Football, as payment for football rent
for team practices, pre-season, regular season, post-season home games, 5
Incidental Events, year round change facilities and associated amenities and office
space.
A guaranteed payment of $150,000 (indexed annually beginning in 2017 and
continuing for each license year) per year for Soccer as a payment for the use of a
defined portion of the stadium for soccer pre-season, regular season, post-season
home games, office space in the Stadium and practice facilities outside of the
Stadium


The City will receive 50% of the net revenue for consumable concessions (e.g. food and
beverage) and a negotiated amount from non-consumable concessions (e.g. branded
merchandise) from City events and 15% net revenue from all consumable concessions
for all other events (including Tiger-Cats events and Incidental events but not including
football and soccer games).

Offsite Parking - should the off-site stadium parking plan be implemented, the
Tiger-Cats will pay 50% of the net earnings from all off-site parking (football games
and events). All costs for obtaining additional parking, including any legal fees and
permitting fees shall be initially borne by the Tiger-Cats, but will be an expense in
the calculation of additional net parking proceeds. Offsite Parking funds will be
paid to the Ivor Wynne Community Fund for the purpose of developing community
projects within the Stadium Precinct neighbourhood.

Additional Rent
(*Indexed)
* Club Seats - 50% of Club Seat Revenues
* Private Suites - $4,000 per rented Suite
* Community Fund- 10% Tiger Cats net
income for community fund

also the ticats bought the naming rights for $750,000 per year and sold them to tim hortons for well over $1 million per year.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, Hamilton is a pretty good market for the Ticats and the CFL but I'd say the percentage of CFL haters relative to population is higher than on the Prairies. So a more lavish stadium (not tied to an international event) would have raised a big hue and cry: "A new stadium for the CFL? WTF? NOBODY watches the CFL anymore!!!!"

This is also the case in Ottawa, though its prevelance is likely somewhere in between Hamilton and the Prairies.

Check the calibration on your pulse measure because R love (and thus by extension CFL love) is as high as I can ever recall in Ottawa.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Check the calibration on your pulse measure because R love (and thus by extension CFL love) is as high as I can ever recall in Ottawa.

Oh, I definitely agree with you. It's been a remarkable turnaround. There is a great buzz around the Redblacks in Ottawa and even in Gatineau believe it or not.

It's pushed most of the local CFL haters into hiding. Which is a good thing.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Check the calibration on your pulse measure because R love (and thus by extension CFL love) is as high as I can ever recall in Ottawa.

In fairness to Acajack, I suppose things weren't quite as rosy before the RBs actually began playing... although there was enthusiasm from the get-go, I recall there was also a bit of skepticism given what happened to the two previous CFL teams in Ottawa.

I'm sure if a new stadium proposal were being hatched for the RBs today, it would probably look a bit more in scale like NMS or IGF than THF.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

In fairness to Acajack, I suppose things weren't quite as rosy before the RBs actually began playing... although there was enthusiasm from the get-go, I recall there was also a bit of skepticism given what happened to the two previous CFL teams in Ottawa.

I'm sure if a new stadium proposal were being hatched for the RBs today, it would probably look a bit more in scale like NMS or IGF than THF.

Yes, there was a lot of anti-CFL, anti-OSEG, anti-whatever hate in Ottawa when there was talk of renovating Lansdowne and bringing back the team. Obviously it wasn't all anti-CFL. There was lots of NIMBYism in the part of the city where the stadium is.

The RBs have been brilliant at countering all of that. And it's not just related to on-field success.

[YOWflier]

There was all sorts of hate and a healthy amount of skepticism around bringing back a team because because Renegades and Gliebermans. But OSEG with Jeff Hunt at the helm provided good assurance (and credibility) ... and they've delivered.

[Acajack]

Make no mistake. I have almost nothing but good things to say about OSEG.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Migs

Disagree. To me it's merely lines on a field, the soccer lines are irrelevant to me, last weekend was the first time I noticed that McMahon has soccer lines too & the only reason I noticed is because I specifically looked for it. Meh, to each their own.

yeah...its not to each their own, really...I get that you are extra sensitive about criticism of this project and I personally think it will be the best football stadium in the country, but it is a football stadium only. By building permanent lines on the field it instantly removes itself from the discussion of any other sport at a level beyond perhaps university.....that may be fine, but that is the reality....the owners have clearly made the decision that hosting national team soccer games men's or women's, world cup qualifiers, friendlies etc....is something they are not interested in...they clearly feel that it will not be a venue if regina ever gets a team in the north American soccer league or whatever else.

again, that's all fine....its not anything but a football stadium and multi-purpose for sports was just a marketing ploy....that's the choice they've intentionally made...but it isn't 'to each their own' as if it was an aesthetic preference...the choice has consequence....its not just lines on a field....those lines limit specific uses of the stadium....which I think is a shame.

[esquire]

Is it possible that stadium management in Regina pursued the matter with the CSA and asked some questions before making its decision re: the lines? I highly doubt that Regina closed the door on major international soccer events in a state of ignorance, or out of spite... if the CSA says that you aren't likely to host any significant soccer events then it's really no big deal to just go with the stitched in football lines.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

The WWC has come and gone and won't be back for decades, the U19 WC was in Canada not that long ago and won't be back soon, any WC for Canada is highly speculative and probably at least 25 years off, by which point Sask's turf will have been replaced twice. So again, what are they missing out on? The chance to host a couple of international friendlies that would probably draw far better in Toronto or Vancouver anyway?

soccer is a growing sport in Canada...women's in particular....world cup qualifying happens every four years for both men's and women's....friendlies happen every year...There is pressure to host a Gold Cup in Canada....European teams hold friendlies in North America routinely now in preparation for their seasons....its just a shame that what will be the nicest stadium in the country has removed itself from anything other than 10 football games per year.

its typically Canadian...we have little respect for the quality of the game itself....its the same as the plastic field world cup we embarrassed ourselves with....

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

Is it possible that stadium management in Regina pursued the matter with the CSA and asked some questions before making its decision re: the lines? I highly doubt that Regina closed the door on major international soccer events in a state of ignorance, or out of spite... if the CSA says that you aren't likely to host any significant soccer events then it's really no big deal to just go with the stitched in football lines.

I'm sure they looked at it and said it is easier and cheaper to paint the lines once and that was the end of it...

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by trueviking

its typically Canadian...we have little respect for the quality of the game itself....its the same as the plastic field world cup we embarrassed ourselves with....

You lost me, and many others I'm sure, when you state that "Canada is not a truly sporting country"

Huh???

I notice that you edited that statement out of your post. Good decision!!

[Migs]

Originally Posted by trueviking

yeah...its not to each their own, really...I get that you are extra sensitive about criticism of this project and I personally think it will be the best football stadium in the country, but it is a football stadium only. By building permanent lines on the field it instantly removes itself from the discussion of any other sport at a level beyond perhaps university.....that may be fine, but that is the reality....the owners have clearly made the decision that hosting national team soccer games men's or women's, world cup qualifiers, friendlies etc....is something they are not interested in...they clearly feel that it will not be a venue if regina ever gets a team in the north American soccer league or whatever else.

again, that's all fine....its not anything but a football stadium and multi-purpose for sports was just a marketing ploy....that's the choice they've intentionally made...but it isn't 'to each their own' as if it was an aesthetic preference...the choice has consequence....its not just lines on a field....those lines limit specific uses of the stadium....which I think is a shame.

By all means, concern yourself with lines on a field. To me it's as irrelevant as all the lines on McMahon Stadiums new turf.

I haven't read one complaint by the CSA or the local soccer organizations about the decision.

[ScreamingViking]

The first concept goes back to Hamilton's 2010 Commonwealth Games bid in the early 2000s (you can see a pic on p.47). When the Pan Am stadium was proposed for the west harbour, the image was just dusted off and re-used to show what a stadium would look like there.

The second one was a concept floated by a developer who had been looking to build in the area. I'm not sure it even reached the point of discussing costs. It would have been a unique and probably very nice stadium if it had been seriously pursued.

The third was related to discussion of a potential site in west Hamilton that could have broken the location debate impasse, on a rail yard owned by CP. I believe that was the team's concept, to be built in cooperation with Bob Young's private sector developer friends. The massive cost of acquiring the land killed that idea. Personally I wish it had gone through -- it would have been an amazing site aesthetically (right near the escarpment), next to a major highway with fairly good city street access too, almost 3km west of downtown.

With all three though it would still have come down to cost. Unless someone else stepped up with major money the $145M+ budget wasn't going to increase (in fact it had already been upped once). So I doubt we'd have seen a much grander outcome no matter where it ended up.

But for it's lack of flare, it does exactly what the team needs right now, has all the necessities and facilities, and is a great place to watch a game. I hope to see the team put more into it in the future.

Originally Posted by esquire

I was a little disappointed by Hamilton's stadium mainly because Hamilton has been a traditionally strong football city (despite the indifference of the rest of the Golden Horseshoe area), and the earlier proposals were all for fairly impressive looking venues.

The one which was ultimately chosen was probably the least ambitious proposal that we saw coming out of Hamilton....here were some of the early concepts for a Hamilton stadium, all far more impressive than what ended up being built:







THF is not bad, it does the job and is a huge improvement over ancient Ivor Wynne, but at the same time it feels like Hamilton could have and should have done better.

Ottawa's semi-new venue is nice but as a certain individual here has reminded us, there is a certain lipstick on a pig element to it. If the owners knew the RBs would take off the way they have would they have gone bigger with it their plan? Or was it a matter of wanting to stay at their excellent current location at all costs and they just shaped their design around what could realistically be accommodated on that site?

[Migs]

Originally Posted by trueviking

soccer is a growing sport in Canada...women's in particular....world cup qualifying happens every four years for both men's and women's....friendlies happen every year...There is pressure to host a Gold Cup in Canada....European teams hold friendlies in North America routinely now in preparation for their seasons....its just a shame that what will be the nicest stadium in the country has removed itself from anything other than 10 football games per year.

its typically Canadian...we have little respect for the quality of the game itself....its the same as the plastic field world cup we embarrassed ourselves with....

It's comedy to me how sensitive "footy" fans are with the field whether it be lines or grass/turf. Women's World Cup was a success & the only ones embarrassed about it are the insecure ones who don't want the bad things said about them from the likes of the Red Patch Boys.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Migs

By all means, concern yourself with lines on a field. To me it's as irrelevant as all the lines on McMahon Stadiums new turf.

I haven't read one complaint by the CSA or the local soccer organizations about the decision.

I thought this discussion was dead, but hey if people wan to keep it going.....

It's been well documented that the CSA and local soccer organizations have been disappointed with the decision...


In a letter to the bid group, CSA wrote how the playing surface is the “primary concern” in making a decision, and the turf lines will “greatly influence any consideration of bringing international soccer to Regina.”

Devin Masch, executive director of the Regina Soccer Association, sees the city’s turf decision as an “opportunity missed, especially if (the stadium has) been sold to the public as a multi-purpose centre.”


http://leaderpost.com/sports/local-sports/new-regina-stadium-turf-might-deter-major-soccer-matches

[Oilkountry]

Do You really think Ottawa would have gone bigger? They sell out every game and have the ability to add clubs like the log cabin to bring in further revenue as needed. I would say TD is the perfect venue for ottawa.

THF....$145M and sold out game in game out. Enough said

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Do You really think Ottawa would have gone bigger? They sell out every game and have the ability to add clubs like the log cabin to bring in further revenue as needed. I would say TD is the perfect venue for ottawa.

THF....$145M and sold out game in game out. Enough said

As for soccer/regina/mosiac. Nobody gives a shit about soccer in Regina.