Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Buggys

1overcosc, do you know why concrete ties are so rare?

Not sure. My first thought is because wood is so cheap in Canada.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by Buggys

1overcosc, do you know why concrete ties are so rare?

Because: Canada

Have you seen concrete outside on the street in Canada?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Buggys

1overcosc, do you know why concrete ties are so rare?

Cost is the major factor. On the flip side, concrete ties are stronger and last longer (55 to 60 years for concrete, vs. 20 to 25 years for wood according to RailroadTies: Precast Concrete or Wood?. For LRT, we are probably looking at the higher range since the trains are so light and you get the added advantage of being able to largely set them and forget them without having to shut down the line for maintenance. Given the RTG's 30 year maintenance contract, they probably chose concrete to ensure they don't have to replace them (a slow and expensive process).

The other factor is that most of our track predates concrete ties and switching from wood to concrete ties on existing track is less trivial than staying with wood (or installing them on new track) since concrete ties don't need to be spaced as close together (a factor that makes them more affordable). To switch they would have to either install more than necessary (further increasing cost) or dig up the ballast to allow them to change the tie spacing (normally to replace ties they have one machine pull out the old ties and another push a new ones in the hole left behind).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

Because: Canada

Have you seen concrete outside on the street in Canada?

That is the result of salt use. Railways don't use salt on the tracks as it would accelerate the corrosion of the rails so it isn't a factor.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is the result of salt use. Railways don't use salt on the tracks as it would accelerate the corrosion of the rails so it isn't a factor.

Lots of salt in and around the stations, dripping from overpasses, etc. and lots of freeze-thaw action...

Hopefully the precast has been designed for adequate protection, with lots of cover for the steel.

[Kitchissippi]

Concrete ties probably need more precision in installation. Wood is far more forgiving and simpler technology when repairing rail lines in the middle of nowhere. Wood also tends to absorb energy and flex, maybe it's better for heavy rail freight?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Wood also tends to absorb energy and flex, maybe it's better for heavy rail freight?

Not sure about that. One of the articles I read said that with the freight railroads transitioning to even heavier freight cars, concrete ties will become even more important. Certainly concrete ties are important for HSR as you need the track to be ridged and not flex.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

Lots of salt in and around the stations, dripping from overpasses, etc. and lots of freeze-thaw action...

Hopefully the precast has been designed for adequate protection, with lots of cover for the steel.

The platforms and stairs are heated so that they don't need to use salt on them. Overpasses can be designed to minimize salt and snow falling onto the tracks. Besides, they don't want a train to hit a wall of snow being pushed off the overpass by a plow (not common but it can happen). As for freeze-thaw, concrete ties will be affected less than wooden ones, but it will be something that they will have to deal with regardless. It isn't as if this is the first railway ever built in a northern climate.

[Buggys]

...Wow neat, so interesting....

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Cost is the major factor. On the flip side, concrete ties are stronger and last longer (55 to 60 years for concrete, vs. 20 to 25 years for wood according to RailroadTies: Precast Concrete or Wood?. For LRT, we are probably looking at the higher range since the trains are so light and you get the added advantage of being able to largely set them and forget them without having to shut down the line for maintenance. Given the RTG's 30 year maintenance contract, they probably chose concrete to ensure they don't have to replace them (a slow and expensive process).

The other factor is that most of our track predates concrete ties and switching from wood to concrete ties on existing track is less trivial than staying with wood (or installing them on new track) since concrete ties don't need to be spaced as close together (a factor that makes them more affordable). To switch they would have to either install more than necessary (further increasing cost) or dig up the ballast to allow them to change the tie spacing (normally to replace ties they have one machine pull out the old ties and another push a new ones in the hole left behind).

The other issue is the cost of disposal. Wood ties can be cut, used for garden walls, or left to decompose ( unfortunately the creosote is an issue). When wooden ties are cut in half for removal they can be handled manually unlike concrete ties.
Concrete ties are often used in sections of track with a lot of curvature since the concrete ties keep their alignment better and hence the track does not go out of guage.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

The other issue is the cost of disposal. Wood ties can be cut, used for garden walls, or left to decompose ( unfortunately the creosote is an issue).

Is there a market for used railway ties? Given the labour cost of installing landscape ties, I can't imagine cheering out and using a used tie with a significantly shorter life. As for letting them decompose, I suspect they are considered hazardous waste and can't be left at the side of the track or even used in a normal composting facility. OTOH, concrete ties can be crushed and recycled.

When wooden ties are cut in half for removal they can be handled manually unlike concrete ties.

True, but most railways use machines to change the ties and ca just stack them on a flat car for easy transport.

Concrete ties are often used in sections of track with a lot of curvature since the concrete ties keep their alignment better and hence the track does not go out of guage.

True. Also important on straight sections (to a lesser extent) for for higher classes of track (requested for HSR).

[waterloowarrior]

https://twitter.com/ottawacity/status/756188296527671297/photo/1
‏@ottawacity 5h5 hours ago
We’'re bringing electric trains back to #OttCity. So exciting! #OttLRT #TBT #OnTrack2018

[OttawaSteve]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

https://twitter.com/ottawacity/status/756188296527671297/photo/1
‏@ottawacity 5h5 hours ago
We’'re bringing electric trains back to #OttCity. So exciting! #OttLRT #TBT #OnTrack2018

That is an...interesting...choice of archival image. Here is the description from the city's own website:

Title/Description: Street car crash on Sussex and Rideau streets. Automobiles in Ottawa were forced to navigate around the cumbersome streetcars, which caused actions such as this. When the streetcars were removed in 1959, the flow of traffic was much improved, and fewer accidents occurred.
Photographer: Unknown.
Date: April 17, 1954.
Credit: Andrews-Newton Photographers Fond / City of Ottawa Archives / MG393-AN-NP-030847-001, MG393-CA-003911-001.
Copyright: City of Ottawa Archives.

Arrived at the city's page by way of info on Urbsite.

[Aylmer]

Oh the poor automobiles, "forced to navigate" around things! What a terrible time it must have been to have to stop or slow down on a road.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Oh the poor automobiles, "forced to navigate" around things! What a terrible time it must have been to have to stop or slow down on a road.

But there was a great deal of truth to this. Streetcars sharing streets with regular traffic does not work well. If the streetcar runs down the left lane, which was typical, you couldn't pass them on the left. But you couldn't pass them on the right either easily, because they would stop every second block to pick up and let off passengers.

New streetcar lines should run separated from regular traffic to avoid these conflicts. And that is besides the increased risk of accidents, which is detrimental more to the streetcar line than to regular traffic. And there was the extra risks to passenger disembarking into traffic, which may not stop, despite traffic laws, that most of us have forgotten.

[Aylmer]

For sure. What I found a bit rich was that it was written all from the perspective of the automobile without consideration for the passengers who were arguably much more inconvenienced in much larger numbers by the presence of automobiles.

[1overcosc]

Website now has this picture up of a train being assembled:


(City of Ottawa)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

For sure. What I found a bit rich was that it was written all from the perspective of the automobile without consideration for the passengers who were arguably much more inconvenienced in much larger numbers by the presence of automobiles.

Streetcar passengers AND motorists are inconvenienced when streetcars run in mixed traffic. Don't believe this, look at King or Queen at rush hour. And if there is a breakdown or accident, it gets worse.

Grade separated, even if it looks like Spadina would be my only suggestion.

[zzptichka]

Should we also grade separate buses on every route? They too inconvenience drivers.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Should we also grade separate buses on every route? They too inconvenience drivers.

You mean Transitways?

Seriously though, for anything that wants to be any type of rapid transit, being separated from traffic is the only way to go.