VIA Rail network developments

[GreaterMontréal]

just to let you know

Quebec) The electric train imagined for the city hustles high frequency train Plans (TGF) Quebec-Montreal, both in need of narrow tunnel under Mount Royal to move quickly. Considering impossible to share the space, the Caisse de depot et placement du Quebec (CDPQ) proposes to repress intercity trains at a transfer station near Highway 40, then retrieve passengers to carry them to the center- city.

http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/actuali...ctrique-et-le-tgf-sous-le-mont-royal.php

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That is the Richmond Hill GO line and it's a very problematic route as its very curvy and prone to flooding.

The Toronto connection is yet another problem with the Peterborough route. The other possible way into Union would mean building a track switch near Agincourt GO (just north of the 401) and then using the Stouffville GO line to Union, and with GO RER coming in on that line there's probably not enough space for VIA. The Lakeshore East line is the only line coming in to Union Station from the east where Metrolinx has ensured enough space for high-frequency intercity rail, as they've followed VIA's direction on this matter and VIA has never given any indications that they need another corridor.



Uh, what? Adding a third track with some sidings to increase to 4 in some places (all that's needed to separate freight & passenger traffic) is much cheaper than building a full-standard track through Peterborough. The entire GTA-Havelock route is only one track... so very single bridge structure on that route is going to have be replaced/expanded too... both routes have this problem. If you honestly think the Peterborough route is cheaper you're very much out to lunch...



This is true, but I imagine the 2.5 hour travel time is an exaggeration.

VIA just bought the tracks from Brockville to Smiths Falls.. something they probably wouldn't have done if they weren't planning on using it for dedicated tracks.

GO uses the former cn line. There is also a former cp line in the don valley. May have flooding problems as well.

We have no idea what is cheaper. It depend what they are planing which they won't reveal. In almost any scenario most bridge structures will need to be replaced.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Without a deal everything via is saying is pure speculation: the cost estimates, the technical requirements for the rolling stock, the ridership projections.

Agreed. It is a cost estimate. It isn't a firm price. Obviously the actual price and travel times will be affected by the route that is finally chosen, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with an estimate for both.

I asked VIA Rail's Senior Director, Communications what the exact route will be and received the following response:

As we are in the process of evaluating all possible options for our dedicated track project, it is unfortunately too early to get into specific details.

We will be pursuing our work and studies in the coming months.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

http://www.lapresse.ca/le-soleil/actuali...ctrique-et-le-tgf-sous-le-mont-royal.php

Interesting. Also from the article (translated with Google Translate with minor clarifications):

Discussions with Via Rail

For its part, Via Rail is not hiding his interest in the Mount Royal tunnel. According to the Senior Advisor Media Relations Mariam Diaby, the circulation of REM [Réseau électrique métropolitain] and HFR "technically possible on the same infrastructure if it is planned and built with the intention of allowing the interoperability of the two projects." It states that "it is also an increasingly popular approach in Europe". The Sun asked for concrete examples and awaits a response.

It was not possible to know either how the corporation welcomes the idea of ​​depositing its passenger intermodal station. While driving on lanes on the north shore, Via Rail think trains could link the capital and metropolis in 2 hours and 10 minutes instead of 3:20, which would triple the traffic to 1.2 million passes per year.

LRT projects ($ 5.5 billion) and heavy train ($ 4 billion) are still in the planning stage. Federal grants are claimed in both cases. For now, the Mount Royal tunnel belongs to the Agence métropolitaine de transport (AMT), who acquired CN along the Deux-Montagnes line for commuter trains. The Caisse wants to purchase it. Via Rail has not clarified its intentions.

[1overcosc]

^ Wait... VIA won't need the Mont-Royal tunnel to get tracks into Gare Centrale from the west... it shares tracks with the Hudson-Vaudreuil AMT line which is not planned to be used in the REM project.

So this whole dispute is only relevant for future service between Montreal and Quebec City.

It would be extremely stupid for trains from Quebec City to not service Gare Centrale.. hopefully they can work this out.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ Wait... VIA won't need the Mont-Royal tunnel to get tracks into Gare Centrale from the east... it shares tracks with the Hudson-Vaudreuil AMT line which is not planned to be used in the REM project.

So this whole dispute is only relevant for future service between Montreal and Quebec City.

It is a Quebec article so they may be focusing on Quebec issues. It may also be key for service to the west as well as currently the trains to/from the west have to turn 120 degrees to get into Central Station. this is one of the biggest problems with Montreal's Central Station is the tracks are perpendicular to the most popular routes. It is fine for Amtrack trains and the Jonquière and Senneterre, but that's only about 4 trains a day (2 arrivals 2 departures).

In a perfect world, VIA would add platforms perpendicular to the current platforms. To the west, it would run north of the Bell Centre (basically under Avenue des Canadiens-de-Montréal) and then merge with the AMT tracks to the west of gare Lucien-L'Allier. That would be much shorter and faster than the current route and would only need a few blocks of tunnel.

It would be extremely stupid for trains from Quebec City to not service Gare Centrale.. hopefully they can work this out.

Agreed. This restriction would also affect the AMT Mascouche line. The REM plan doesn't include it, so it would also have to stop prior to the tunnel and have passengers transfer. This is probably the new route VIA is considering using to get off the island to Quebec City.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ Wait... VIA won't need the Mont-Royal tunnel to get tracks into Gare Centrale from the west... it shares tracks with the Hudson-Vaudreuil AMT line which is not planned to be used in the REM project.

So this whole dispute is only relevant for future service between Montreal and Quebec City.

It would be extremely stupid for trains from Quebec City to not service Gare Centrale.. hopefully they can work this out.

Via Rail operates only on CN tracks on its western approaches to Montreal. The CP Vaudreil Line runs parallel to the CN tracks but are not used by CN or Via. Via crosses the CP line northwest of Coteau on its way to Alexandria and Ottawa.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Via Rail operates only on CN tracks on its western approaches to Montreal. The CP Vaudreil Line runs parallel to the CN tracks but are not used by CN or Via. Via crosses the CP line northwest of Coteau on its way to Alexandria and Ottawa.

Didn't know that... I just saw the AMT stations from the windows of VIA trains and assumed they were on the same corridor.

That probably makes VIA's job easier, less conflict with AMT trains.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Didn't know that... I just saw the AMT stations from the windows of VIA trains and assumed they were on the same corridor.

Ooops. I thought you were talking about the Mont-Saint-Hilaire line (you mentioned east of Montreal and it is the only line that VIA shares with AMT). Its not a bad route for getting to Sainte-Foy, but from there it has to head further west and north before heading east and south into Gare du Palais on the east side of Quebec City, practically circling the entire city. The north shore route would avoid this and allow them to head due NE to Quebec city. It has the added bonus of adding a stop in Trois-Rivières.

CN and CP's tracks run side by side from Dorion to Lachine. The tracks then diverge with the CP tracks heading NE and provide a reasonably direct route to gare Lucien-L'Allier (Windsor Station before the Bell Centre was built). The CN track that VIA uses does a rather circuitous route, heading NE, then E then NE, then N then NW into Central station. This routing (and the slow speeds it requires) likely add about 5 minutes to the trip. May not seem like much, but VIA is talking about having 16 round trips a day on the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal route, so 32 times 5 minutes is 2h40m hours a day of extra labour and equipment time.

That probably makes VIA's job easier, less conflict with AMT trains.

Not really. Commuter trains are slower than intercity trains but they are much faster than freight trains. More importantly, they try to stick to a regular schedule. These days, most freight trains run as specials, since the railways wait until they have a large enough load (one exception is CPR's Expressway service). The freight railways realize that they can't compete with trucks and planes on speed, so they focus on keeping their cost as low as possible and fewer long trains are cheaper to operate than more shorter ones. This unpredictability is the biggest problem VIA Rail faces (they can't schedule around the freight trains) and is why they want dedicated tracks for passenger service. Having said that, VIA will probably rent out the tracks at night, when they aren't using them. This would likely be an important part of the deal if they want to buy existing tracks.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Ooops. I thought you were talking about the Mont-Saint-Hilaire line (you mentioned east of Montreal and it is the only line that VIA shares with AMT).

Ya.. east was a typo. Meant to say west. My bad.

[roger1818]

Further to my previous post. One of the big problems is Montreal has never had a Union Station. The CNR acquired a patchwork of stations from the Grand Trunk and Canadian Northern Railway (Bonaventure Station, Tunnel Terminal, Moreau Street Station, and the McGill Street Terminal. The CPR also had a couple stations: the grand Windsor Station (two blocks north of Bonaventure Station) for trains to the west and south, and Viger Station (which replaced Dalhousie Station for trains from the east. Many of these stations still exist, but are used for other purposes.

The CPR consolidated all of their operations into Windsor station. The CNR decided to build Central Station where the original CNoR Tunnel Terminal was located to take advantage of the Mount Royal Tunnel to consolidate their stations (except the McGill Street Terminal). An elevated viaduct was built for trains from the south and west (the easiest way to connect to existing tracks). There were plans to build a shortcut for passenger trains from the west to use the tunnel, but it was never constructed. As you can see it would have been a much better route.


image from Wikipedia.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Agreed. It is a cost estimate. It isn't a firm price. Obviously the actual price and travel times will be affected by the route that is finally chosen, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with an estimate for both.

I asked VIA Rail's Senior Director, Communications what the exact route will be and received the following response:

I don't see how you can do an estimate without a plan. They would have no idea what soil and rock conditions are, what structures need to be built or rebuilt, what land is required, what compensation CN or CP will expect.

The normal thing to do would be to do a feasibility study that would offer up some options and the potential associated costs and benefits. Instead they announced very specific numbers for costs and travel time improvements and then went about looking for a plan. Doesn't seem like an effective strategy to me.

[1overcosc]

I think they've already done a feasibility study a while ago, but it hasn't been made public.

Based on the relative lack of study work, done, though (a feasibility study can be private, but anything like an EA would have to be public), as well as the short timelines VIA is talking about, it does suggest use of the Lakeshore route. Adding tracks to an existing corridor is a very routine thing and can be done with only a few months of planning work (judging by how quickly GO adds tracks), whereas a whole new rail corridor is a lot more effort.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think they've already done a feasibility study a while ago, but it hasn't been made public.

Based on the relative lack of study work, done, though (a feasibility study can be private, but anything like an EA would have to be public), as well as the short timelines VIA is talking about, it does suggest use of the Lakeshore route. Adding tracks to an existing corridor is a very routine thing and can be done with only a few months of planning work (judging by how quickly GO adds tracks), whereas a whole new rail corridor is a lot more effort.

They seem to have gone out of their way to not describe this as a track addition project (such as the one Via undertook a few years ago or GO does from time to time) but as a dedicated line that would be used by passenger trains which would seem to describe something more like GO sub between Pickering and Oshawa (which runs parallel to the VIA/CN tracks) than via rail or GO transit projects we have seen in recent years (which tend to still be mixed use, just with more tracks).

I think what you're describing makes more sense because it can be implemented incrementally.

[1overcosc]

Freight trains are fairly infrequent; freight companies like to have fewer trips with bigger trains. For this reason, CN doesn't really need a double tracked mainline. It can get by with one track with periodic sidings (like what VIA uses on its Ottawa-Montreal route) for all its traffic.

Based on this, VIA could get its own tracks on the Lakeshore route by building a third track on the route for CN, with that track having its own sidings.. this would allow VIA to have exclusive use of the two existing tracks.

This would be fairly affordable. Adding tracks to an existing railway is a lot cheaper than building a whole new railway because you can use the existing railway itself as a staging area for construction (for example, by using a train to ship the ties and gravel right to the construction site). Many of the bridge structures on the route already have enough room for three tracks, and they can strategically put the freight sidings in areas where there are no obstacles to avoid having to rebuild any bridges to have to support 4 tracks.

It could potentially be even more affordable if VIA can get CN & CP to share the CP tracks between Oshawa and Belleville. Between those two cities, the CN and CP corridors are very close together. If CN can move its traffic between Belleville and Oshawa onto the CP track, VIA wouldn't even had to build a whole new third track... between those two points, it just has to build track sidings onto the CP route. Through this approach, the entire corridor from Toronto to Belleville could have all freight conflicts removed for as little as a few hundred million.

[1overcosc]

Between Brockville and Ottawa freight conflicts are already more or less removed as VIA owns the tracks.. the only spot of conflict is in Smiths Falls where VIA has to cross over a CP rail yard. There are three ways VIA could remove this conflict:
1) Paying CP to move its rail yard a little further east or west, outside of Smiths Falls town limits, reducing the VIA-CP interaction to a mere level crossing which can then be easily grade-separated. This is the cheapest and easiest option, and would likely get the support of the Smiths Falls town government too as the CP yard takes up a huge amount of land in the town centre and creates traffic problems.
2) Building a new bypass track around Smiths Falls (difficult)
3) Building a tunnel underneath the CP yard (expensive)

Aside from that, VIA also had to deal with the fact that its track between Brockville and Ottawa is only 1 track. They could get around this problem by building two long sidings (about 10km long), one between Brockville and Smiths Falls and another between Smiths Falls and Ottawa. The sidings would be long enough that with proper schedule co-ordination (which, once freight conflicts are removed, should be easy enough to do), trains can pass each other without stopping. GO is planning on using this trick on the lines to Markham and Barrie to allow two-way service to be delivered quickly in advance of the time it will take to fully build the RER system.

Within Ottawa, the main issue is the junction with the Trillium Line, which needs to be grade separated, as it imposes a pretty big scheduling constraint on VIA.

Between Ottawa & Montreal it's a similar story.. they just need to build some long sidings, and remove the freight conflict just inside the Quebec border, possibly with an overpass of the CP tracks.

VIA's often cited cost of $3B sounds about right for all this work, including the third tracking of the Lakeshore line, the removal of the Smiths Falls and Coteau conflicts, long sidings between Brockville-Ottawa-Montreal.

The main issue of course is CN and CP being onboard with this. CN should be reasonably co-operative as VIA trains right now are a pain for them to deal with; CP, who knows. (The general experience in the GTA and in Montreal is that CN is much more receptive to negotating with passenger carriers than CP is). If push comes to shove the federal government can use its regulatory power over the freight railways to get them to climb on board, although this would be a last resort.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think they've already done a feasibility study a while ago, but it hasn't been made public.

Oh, yes, we need another one

• Video Link

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Freight trains are fairly infrequent; freight companies like to have fewer trips with bigger trains. For this reason, CN doesn't really need a double tracked mainline. It can get by with one track with periodic sidings (like what VIA uses on its Ottawa-Montreal route) for all its traffic.

Has CN said this? Have they told this to shareholders or regulators? What would be their incentive to do this? It's one thing to dispose of lines that are not part of their core network (Ottawa, parts of the lakeshore line in Toronto) but they would have a hard time explaining to their shareholders that they struck a deal with Via to make their core intercontinental network less efficient. Freight companies do not operate to serve passengers (which is why freight trains have the right of way in the first place).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Has CN said this? Have they told this to shareholders or regulators? What would be their incentive to do this? It's one thing to dispose of lines that are not part of their core network (Ottawa, parts of the lakeshore line in Toronto) but they would have a hard time explaining to their shareholders that they struck a deal with Via to make their core intercontinental network less efficient. Freight companies do not operate to serve passengers (which is why freight trains have the right of way in the first place).

For CN, the main benefit would be an arrangement that removes conflict with VIA thus opening up their operational capacity, plus it would reduce their costs by having less track to maintain.

If push comes to shove, the federal government can always intervene as they have the power to more or less force CN into a deal, should they choose.

CN recently made major concessions to Metrolinx over the track through Brampton and Georgetown (disputes over this track was the primary obstacle to GO RER service to Brampton/Kitchener) reportedly because Queen's Park worked behind the scenes to lobby the federal government to put a lot of pressure on CN.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Between Brockville and Ottawa freight conflicts are already more or less removed as VIA owns the tracks.. the only spot of conflict is in Smiths Falls where VIA has to cross over a CP rail yard. There are three ways VIA could remove this conflict:
1) Paying CP to move its rail yard a little further east or west, outside of Smiths Falls town limits, reducing the VIA-CP interaction to a mere level crossing which can then be easily grade-separated. This is the cheapest and easiest option, and would likely get the support of the Smiths Falls town government too as the CP yard takes up a huge amount of land in the town centre and creates traffic problems.
2) Building a new bypass track around Smiths Falls (difficult)
3) Building a tunnel underneath the CP yard (expensive)

Aside from that, VIA also had to deal with the fact that its track between Brockville and Ottawa is only 1 track. They could get around this problem by building two long sidings (about 10km long), one between Brockville and Smiths Falls and another between Smiths Falls and Ottawa. The sidings would be long enough that with proper schedule co-ordination (which, once freight conflicts are removed, should be easy enough to do), trains can pass each other without stopping. GO is planning on using this trick on the lines to Markham and Barrie to allow two-way service to be delivered quickly in advance of the time it will take to fully build the RER system.

Within Ottawa, the main issue is the junction with the Trillium Line, which needs to be grade separated, as it imposes a pretty big scheduling constraint on VIA.

Between Ottawa & Montreal it's a similar story.. they just need to build some long sidings, and remove the freight conflict just inside the Quebec border, possibly with an overpass of the CP tracks.

VIA's often cited cost of $3B sounds about right for all this work, including the third tracking of the Lakeshore line, the removal of the Smiths Falls and Coteau conflicts, long sidings between Brockville-Ottawa-Montreal.

The main issue of course is CN and CP being onboard with this. CN should be reasonably co-operative as VIA trains right now are a pain for them to deal with; CP, who knows. (The general experience in the GTA and in Montreal is that CN is much more receptive to negotating with passenger carriers than CP is). If push comes to shove the federal government can use its regulatory power over the freight railways to get them to climb on board, although this would be a last resort.

Another option for Smiths Falls I can think of is to keep the existing track, ensure they are the leftmost tracks with no connections to freight (to keep passenger and freight traffic separated), with 2 tracks in the station (island platform). From there it would need to encroach on Victoria Street (probably right to street's edge) and one or two houses would need to be expropriated. That would allow them to build a new overpass over Cornelia Street/Highway 15 (since freight probably needs 3 tracks, it would be the easiest option), followed by a flyover of the freight tracks onto its own ROW towards Ottawa. IMO, a grade separation of Highway 15N (towards Carleton Place) is necessary due to traffic and the skew of the tracks there as well.