Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[Future Mayor]

The OR and the likes never demanded a connected hotel with a specific amount of rooms, with that said the County and the Convention and Visitors Bureau did research and come to the conclusion that 800-1,200 was a realistic goal. The initial information we got from the bid proposals was the DDRM planned 1,000 as well as some residential. So I wouldn't call our hopes of a possible new tallest, or tall hotel, being unrealistic as we were basing those off of information that was released regarding the bid process

It could very well be that as DDRM was awarded the bid, and as they got into the market research more that they realized that closer to 800 was much more realistic, and possibly even closer to 600. It could also be very realistic, as I pointed out in a previous post, that as DDRM did more research they realized that that Property Reserve could easily beat them to the condo market if they were to include residential units in the proposal (although they still easily could include some).

I feel confident saying that OR will be totally pleased with even a 600 room hotel, attached to the Salt Palace. From my experience at conventions and talking with many other people at conventions the organization holding the convention wants to have all of it's executives and any major sponsors and partners centrally located at the convention center hotel, this is easily accomplished with even a 600 room hotel. The addition of 60,000-100,000 additional sf of meeting space in conjunction with an attached hotel will still attract more conventions, because that demand of all being in the CCH is being met.

Another bonus for OR, as well as other potentially large conventions is that with the addition of even 600 rooms at the Convention Center, combined with all the additional rooms coming on line in and around the CBD is that it allows for attendees to not be required to stay as far away as Lehi or Provo. It essentially removes the need for the 600 furthest outlying rooms that OR utilizes every year, or reduces the need to go out even further as the number of attendees increases.

As for the tax incentives now being out of wack, the incentives were never for the rooms themselves, the incentives were for the convention/meeting space that will be within the hotel, and built by the developer, but that will be attached to and included as part of the overall available space for the Salt Palace.


One glass half full way to look at it, IMO, is that if the actual CCH only reaches 25 floors at 600-800 rooms, as larger conventions continue to book at the Salt Palace, because there is not a CCH and more space, there will be more scheduled days at the SP, with more people attending. Combine that with the existing hotel demand and we should realistically expect another decent size hotel to be built near the Salt Palace. Another 300-500 room hotel, even at only 22-25 stories will be a huge boon for downtown overall. Then again I have always been in the I'd rather have two building equaling 50 stories than one building reaching 45. So in that same line of thought, while I'd love to have a 400'+ CCH with 1,000 rooms I am more than pleased to have two hotels with 1,200 rooms. I know so many people are concerned about how the skyline looks, but I would rather have a more active street life over one 500' tower. When I travel to cities I don't base my opinion of the city on how the skyline looks from outside of town, but what the vibe is on the sidewalk as I'm actually experiencing the city.

[Marvland]

Looks like this opens up the possibility of two to three hotel towers instead of one to two across CBD. Good by me. Forum is also further along in their planning for the Regent Boutique hotel, which I'm sure influences the CCH financials and maybe its size. You have to remember that one massive project pretty much sucks the air out of the market. So in one fell swoop, Regent Boutique, Air/Void whatever and Arrowpress all become more possible. Again, fine by me.

One major caveat is that we really still don't know shit. This is all hearsay and we know how that rolls. For what it's worth, I have sources that say that it's all up in the air still and all they have is massing/blocking examples and proformas. So, whatever that means.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by Salty Laker

You guys who are disappointed should only be disappointed in yourselves. If your "optimism" constantly sets you up for disappointment, then what is its purpose? It's not really optimism at all. More like pessimism that is masked until all your hopes and dreams are shattered, then it comes out full force and gets everybody depressed. Seriously. Comrade is one of the more optimistic people on this forum when you look at it that way. (well actually...no he's not)

Projects will get scaled down. It happens in every city. Even in the magic fairyland of Austin, which seems to be every small city's role model, for some reason, projects get scaled down. Like the Fairmont Hotel that at first was tall and sleek and now it's just a glass wall, like every other new building in Austin, except for the Austonian. Really, Austin is not that great when it comes to design. But guess what? Neither is any small or mid-sized city. So whenever you hear early reports of what a project will be like or if you hear "insider information" from one of the forumers, don't get your hopes up. Instead, decrease the greatness of the early details and rumors you're hearing by 30-40% and then you'll never be disappointed. And certainly don't expect anything greater.

From the looks of it, as details come out that seem pretty close to final details, the CCH will be between 300 and 350 feet tall. That's a great size for this city, although you wouldn't know it from the backlash from certain people. It's on par with CC hotels other Salt Lake-sized cities are getting. If you would have all been honest with yourselves you wouldn't have expected anything significantly taller than what it looks like we're getting.

Also, I have some insider information. Salt Lake will get a 500 footer in the next 5-10 years.

(Now, let's practice. 30-40% less than 500 is 300-350. 30-40% more than 5-10 years is 7-14 years. Let's just expect 14 is accurate. There you go! You won't be disappointed now!)

I think a lot of us are dissapointed with the city councils ceiling of 375'. I'm dissapointed with the zoning in general for downtown, it's too confining IMO. Some may look at this rezoning as at least a step in the right direction by increasing the height out further but we need more. The potential for height was there and our city council capped it. That's probably the most irritating part of this. I don't want to dwell on this more. I just want to clarify my frustration.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

I think a lot of us are dissapointed with the city councils ceiling of 375'. I'm dissapointed with the zoning in general for downtown, it's too confining IMO. Some may look at this rezoning as at least a step in the right direction by increasing the height out further but we need more. The potential for height was there and our city council capped it. That's probably the most irritating part of this. I don't want to dwell on this more. I just want to clarify my frustration.

Again, they capped it to match the D-1 because they were told that the most likely scenario was 22-25 stories, so there was no need to go higher. One council member was pushing for the 375' cap with a 425' conditional use with City Council approval. This City Council member pulled that suggestion off the table after the 22-25 story information was provided. This same council person is fully in favor of revisiting the issue and proposing more height, with review, if the need arises.

There truly is no height limit in downtown. There is simply a review process to go above the 375' on corners, in order to have some control regarding design. I'm not one to be in favor of lifting the 375'+ design review just to get a 500' box instead. With the shear length of our blocks I don't have a problem with the 100' mid-block maximum either, particularly since there is also a conditional use height exception for that as well, as has been demonstrated recently with The Regent and with the Regent St hotel approval.

Again it comes down to market demand. If there was demand for a 450' office tower we would get one, there obviously current isn't, but there is demand for the likes of 222 and 111, and hopefully 151 soon. As I've said in the past, the total square footage that is demanded in the market will increase as the overall market increases, even if the percentage stays the same.

Honestly our best bet for a signature or new tallest isn't going to be a developer such as Hamilton Partners, Property Reserve or Boyer, in the current situation Salt Lake City is in, they will continue to be able to build 222, 111, 151 type buildings, where there is enough growth demand to pre-lease a nice portion of a project, often times 45% in order to then get funding. After funding is received and the building commences they can begin to fill out the remainder. The next building then starts to secure pre-leases as the current building nears full occupancy. Again as companies grow that pre-leasing level could come quicker and could push the size of the project bigger.

Our best best for a new tallest will be Zions Bank or a similar institution, it could be Goldman Sacs, if they max out their capacity at 222 and 111 and choose to consolidate into one location, rather than expand to a third. This could then allow a developer, such as those mentioned above, to jump above that 22-25 story level. If Goldman needs 15 floors that allows them to secure financing for the 45% occupancy, that could put the new building around the 33 floor mark. Zions is currently the best bet as they continue to need more office space and feel that one location consolidation is the best option they could go about it the same way. Build a building with them as the 45% or more primary occupant and build the rest of the building for there own needs as well as other companies needing office space. The other option is if a major company decides to relocate their corporate or regional headquarters to Salt Lake City and want to be in one building. That is why we have the Wells Fargo tower, formerly American Stores, because the CEO of American Stores decided he wanted to move the company headquarters to Salt Lake City.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

I think a lot of us are dissapointed with the city councils ceiling of 375'. I'm dissapointed with the zoning in general for downtown, it's too confining IMO. Some may look at this rezoning as at least a step in the right direction by increasing the height out further but we need more. The potential for height was there and our city council capped it. That's probably the most irritating part of this. I don't want to dwell on this more. I just want to clarify my frustration.

I don't want to dwell on it either, but if the county/DDRM are planning on building a hotel between 22-25 stories, there's really no potential for height above 375' in any place that was affected by this ordinance. The CCH will probably get built on the north or south site and those are the only two lots available for development in the whole area being rezoned (except for the RWP block, but nothing tall will get built there, would be out of place and inappropriate). If there ends up being a development on the other site the CCH isn't built on, it likely won't be any taller than the CCH. The only other empty lot on the convention center blocks is west of the Radisson, and that wasn't affected by this zoning change since it is already zoned D-1.

[TheWire]

I also talked to a council member and they told me exactly what Future Mayor said. They were completely willing, if not hoping, for a new tallest. The vote certainly seemed to be started out of concern of 99 W residents. When they went to the county to get an idea of what was to be proposed, the county said they were thinking something along the lines of a 330 ft tall building so a 375' zoning change would easily accommodate that. They said that they could always update the zone if the hotel needed additional height over that. In response to concerns over the contradictions of the footprint and design requirements (~60k meeting space and 800 rooms), they said that according to the council, they have not found a specific site yet nor has there been any kind of design or rendering presented on any level.

Bottom line, I don't think that the council vote really changes much. They seem to be game to accommodate what we were/are all hoping for and are wanting to retain a layer of design review for a larger project. The most noteworthy thing is the county coming to them with the expectation that the design will come in around 330 feet. If that is the case, something has changed in terms of the basic idea around the project.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by TheWire

I also talked to a council member and they told me exactly what Future Mayor said. They were completely willing, if not hoping, for a new tallest. The vote certainly seemed to be started out of concern of 99 W residents. When they went to the county to get an idea of what was to be proposed, the county said they were thinking something along the lines of a 330 ft tall building so a 375' zoning change would easily accommodate that. They said that they could always update the zone if the hotel needed additional height over that. In response to concerns over the contradictions of the footprint and design requirements (~60k meeting space and 800 rooms), they said that according to the council, they have not found a specific site yet nor has there been any kind of design or rendering presented on any level.

Bottom line, I don't think that the council vote really changes much. They seem to be game to accommodate what we were/are all hoping for and are wanting to retain a layer of design review for a larger project. The most noteworthy thing is the county coming to them with the expectation that the design will come in around 330 feet. If that is the case, something has changed in terms of the basic idea around the project.

This sounds like the zoning is based on the estimate from the RFP rather than anything concrete. That seems logical as the design document as part of the RFP had 800 rooms and 22 to 25 stories. Basically what was referenced to the SLC Council from the County. I think this is why I think that DDRM with the County will be requesting a height increase once the design and layout are complete.

I haven't heard anything concrete other than it is still in progress so I can't say anything about the number of rooms, height or anything else. Yes, I have heard rumors but I ignore them to avoid getting overly excited or depressed. I would rather go with verifiable facts or at least from very trusted sources.

The only thing I do know is that DDRM does prefer the North location for the CCH.

One thing to note, the future planned APS hotel has been stated to be planned for approximately 600 rooms if the CCH is 1,000+ rooms. If the CCH is less, APS could go higher or the hotel directly West of the Holiday Inn Express (Shilo) could be fast tracked.

I do want to hit on 1 item. The CCH and Boutique Hotels (Regent and Void) are different markets and don't compete with or against each other. So more rooms or less rooms in the CCH wouldn't have any impact to the hotel rooms in these projects.

[Orlando]

Hey, if you guys want to feel worse about the development situation in SLC, check out these last few pages of Bellevue, a suburban downtown of Seattle. Enjoy! or not

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=79987&page=38

[ctobsl]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Hey, if you guys want to feel worse about the development situation in SLC, check out these last few pages of Bellevue a suburban downtown of Seattle. Enjoy! or not

I hate you! lol

[Ironweed]

[QUOTE=Salty Laker;7468712]You guys who are disappointed should only be disappointed in yourselves. If your "optimism" constantly sets you up for disappointment, then what is its purpose?


"Also, I have some insider information. Salt Lake will get a 500 footer in the next 5-10 years"



Best laugh of the day. Keep drinking your own kool aid, kid.

[Utah_Dave]

Looks like I was placing some undue blame on the city council. Thanks for the correction and info

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by Orlando

Hey, if you guys want to feel worse about the development situation in SLC, check out these last few pages of Bellevue, a suburban downtown of Seattle. Enjoy! or not

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=79987&page=38

Yes, Seattle/Bellevue is a completely different market, however.....

This proves how far behind SLC is in the scheme of things. Decades of downtown neglect, poor regional planning, and the native's desires have retarded downtown's growth. Some oddball, conservative growth is certainly better than none.

I suppose we need to be satisfied with our wooden toys, while our western neighbors get the latest and greatest lego sets.

[Comrade]

My biggest problem has been Salt Lake's inability to develop a high-rise residential market. What is fueling much of the high-rise growth across the country nowadays isn't necessarily commercial towers anymore, but either residential or mixed-use development. Neither is something Salt Lake's even remotely strong in at the moment.

Thankfully the LDS Church stepped up to the plate with two huge residential developments, but the city has kinda been disappointing in this regard since the 80s ended - after there was a push, throughout much of the 60s, 70s and 80s to build high-rise residential buildings. Not just downtown - but all throughout the city.

That kinda ended in the 90s. For whatever reason, maybe it goes back to the trends we've been discussing the last few pages, Salt Lake kinda stalled out on true urban living. We're good at producing a handful of smaller projects but those don't shape anything and they don't bring in people by the droves.

Most these cities are running laps around Salt Lake, and yes, even regional suburbs like Bellevue are, too, because of that leap toward high-rise living. Not only does it create defining architecture, it's often the driving force behind most new high-rise development.

I'd love to see more of it in Salt Lake. But it's not going to happen, unless the LDS Church steps in and builds another residential tower.

[asies1981]

New series on Building Salt Lake: flashback friday. Post on the 30-story turn of the century skyscraper we almost had.

[millhouse]

I can confirm that design on the Regent Street hotel is moving forward and the AC hotel should be breaking ground soon.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by asies1981

New series on Building Salt Lake: flashback friday. Post on the 30-story turn of the century skyscraper we almost had.

Great article Asies! I had no idea this ever existed.

[JMK]

^^^ Nice rendering, but looks like too much stucco

[Liberty Wellsian]

Now that it is official that we are getting a brand new wall, can anyone tell me how wide it is going to be? What was the length of the west temple frontage for the 2 sites?

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by asies1981

New series on Building Salt Lake: flashback friday. Post on the 30-story turn of the century skyscraper we almost had.

RAD! Very fine work, sir.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

If the rumors are true, and we end up with a 20-25 story hotel. I really have to questions the fiscal responsibility of providing tax incentives on such a large scale to one hotel chain for what could be a very non discript hotel. I figured we were offering up these incentives for something more then this. I know this is still early in the process but I don't like where this is headed. I selfishly accepted the large tax incentives for an iconic hotel that was very likely to be a new tallest. Now I can't justify $75,000,000 in incentives for a brick. I feel fleeced.

Also, I take it that some residential development is kinda out of the question?

The incentive was to pay for 100,000 sf of meeting space and the parking garage, not an impressive hotel structure.