Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[ctobsl]

Originally Posted by Comrade

The worst thing ever was the idea of unlimited height. It scared a bunch of backwards-minded people into thinking the skyscraper could be 1,000 feet tall. In reality, the limit should've been set at like 600 feet or something.

I agree, it set their minds free to go wild with buildings that would reach the moon. I also heard the 10 story apartment building that was to be constructed on the corner of 500 E and South Temple is in question because of it's height. It will block the view of the residents in the condo behind it.

500 East Apartments - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7400845&postcount=5948

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by EPdesign

Wait. The article end abruptly. Narrower building..and....they said?

They voted for 375, that is what they said. Nick Norris was only advising and telling them that more floors means a more narrow building. Ultimately the council decided 375 would be enough.

[DCRes]

375 feet will still block the views of 99 West residents just as much as a 1000 foot building would have

[justiny]

This article and the city council drive me insane. The city council are no more engineers/architects than my dog is. I can't understand any way to put 800+ rooms in a 375 ft tall building with that footprint.

The Sheraton Grand Phoenix has 1,000 rooms and is 360 feet tall, yet look at its footprint.

If everyone wants to have a much needed "MEGA CONVENTION HOTEL" like almost every politician has stated the past four years, then let's do it right.

Comrade is right... These decision makers are morons so you have to dumb it down and hold their hand just to attempt comprehension of what is really going on.

[Viperlord]

You know, anytime that I begin to have hope in the glass height ceiling in downtown being shattered...... my hopes get killed.

I guess it's time to begin sending in my rant e-mails to the appropriate city council members. I'll just keep on e-mailing them pictures of massive wall hotels that have the height under 375 feet and 800-1000 rooms. Maybe they'll get the point then. But yes, They will get many many many upset e-mails from me.

I would be willing to bet that the developer and his architect will design within that 375 ft height limit, and it will be a large block of a wall. They'll come to the city council, and present the design, and the City Council and the public neighbors will cry about the massive wall of building. Then, the developer and his architect will say, well... this is what you left us with zoning wise. Then we'll be out another 4-6 months while the city goes through, and has another open house, and re-zone on the area, allowing for more height to prevent a massive wall.




So, something that is even more frightening..... Phoenix's convention center fits the specs that they are looking for perfectly...


About Sheraton Phoenix Downtown Hotel:

1,000 guestrooms.
The hotel provides more than 80,000 square feet of flexible, state-of-the art
meeting space.
360 feet tall
31 floors

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by wrendog

Wow. Thanks for nothing, council. 375 feet???? Lame.

You're right Wrendog. What a total joke! Bwahaha!

Backward minded freaks...

[San Diego-Honolulu]

I don't know why any of you are shocked to hear this announcement. SLC has never been and never will be the standard or leader of the pack in terms of skyscrapers and their overall designs. I'll say it again, if SLC gets the convention hotel it will either be a standard wall design or L shape with a natural colored look (see the Phoenix Sheraton hotel as an example of the colors I'm referring to).

Now all you guys can see why I laughed at you all with those pipe dreams and concepts you came up with of SLC getting a modern looking, tall, sleek style convention hotel. At this point you all better just hope the hotel even makes an impact on the skyline.

[Makid]

While I am shocked that they did put a limit, the limit is for all Eastern edge properties along West Temple and the D-4 (Convention Center) zone.

I do know that there is no way that DDRM can build their hotel to meet the current maximum zoning while also meeting the requirements for meeting space.

I would expect that this issue will come up again soon when the final location is announced and DDRM and the County go back to the SLC Council to get a waiver to exceed the 375' limit.

I don't have any information other than to say that 375' wouldn't work, even for a long "L" shaped building.

I would suspect that upon returning to the Council for approval of a height increase, the Council will be shown 2 versions, 1 with the hotel meeting the height requirement but also spread N/S longer than the current estimated site plan (maybe double the width creating a massive wall). The other being a slim tall tower that would add to the skyline while minimally impacting views.

[EPdesign]

Some should email them the fact that with those specs, we will most likely be getting something that looks like the Sheraton.If not the city council then the media outlets.

[nushiof]

This SL Trib article says there was a proposal to build the CCH as high as 425, slightly higher than the Wells Fargo Building at 420, but the council decided on 375.

Does anyone know if this "proposal" was from DDRM?

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3980083-155/slc-lays-groundwork-for-a-high-rise

[EPdesign]

The article mentioned the Grand America.How tall is that?

[nushiof]

Originally Posted by EPdesign

The article mentioned the Grand America.How tall is that?

Grand America is about 330 with the tower on top I believe.

[airhero]

There seems to be little reason for the convention center block to be zoned for unlimited height, or 500', or even 425' when the rest of downtown is set at a 375' max. Even D-1 zoning allows for buildings up to only 375' on block corners. Sounds like they're just changing the convention center block to match D-1 zoning. If DDRM needs a taller CCH they'll be able to build one in the same way a developer can build one anywhere else in downtown, like with 111, which at 387' is taller than the 375' max height for block corners. DDRM can come forth with a proposal taller than 375', there would be some discussion, some fight from 99 West folk, but it would get approved anyway.

Although...I'm not sure what the precise language of the ordinance was. And based on what council members have said, it sounds like they're expecting the hotel to fit within the 375' limit, so I can understand why some of you are upset. I will be too if we get a Phoenix.

Also, from the Trib article:

But in an afternoon work session, city Councilwoman Lisa Adams said a 375-foot-tall hotel would not affect the 99 West's views to the west.

A 375' hotel as opposed to a taller hotel? Hmm. Am I missing something? 99 West is 375' tall. If a 375' building gets built across the street, it will affect the views as much as a 500' building. Maybe even more since it could be wider to be able to fit all the rooms into the stubby building. I don't understand this.

Councilman Stan Penfold said 375 feet is reasonable if a site review is part of the approval process. The council passed the new height limit with the site design review. It included nonbinding language that favors the southern end of the property as the site for a hotel.

I'm guessing favoring the southern end is a result of the fight from 99 West residents. Who knew they could actually have influence on this process? They own the condos, not the view. And if they have so much money they should have been smart enough to understand that when they purchased their residences.

[delts145]

I will be disappointed if the hotel is only 375', but I still believe it will be designed in an L-shape configuration, particularly the tower portion. The L shape would mitigate a Phoenix type wall.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Makid

I would expect that this issue will come up again soon when the final location is announced and DDRM and the County go back to the SLC Council to get a waiver to exceed the 375' limit.

I don't have any information other than to say that 375' wouldn't work, even for a long "L" shaped building.

I would suspect that upon returning to the Council for approval of a height increase, the Council will be shown 2 versions, 1 with the hotel meeting the height requirement but also spread N/S longer than the current estimated site plan (maybe double the width creating a massive wall). The other being a slim tall tower that would add to the skyline while minimally impacting views.

I think you're right, Makid. This is the only reasonable way that the developers can show the cons of the height limit. Here in Seattle, almost all buildings have to go through a process, where they show an option that completely conforms to the zoning/land-use code , and then two options that have some departures from that. Departures are granted all the time, but nly through showing these massing differences visually, and explaining the reasons for the departures.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by airhero

There seems to be little reason for the convention center block to be zoned for unlimited height, or 500', or even 425' when the rest of downtown is set at a 375' max. Even D-1 zoning allows for buildings up to only 375' on block corners. Sounds like they're just changing the convention center block to match D-1 zoning. If DDRM needs a taller CCH they'll be able to build one in the same way a developer can build one anywhere else in downtown, like with 111, which at 387' is taller than the 375' max height for block corners. DDRM can come forth with a proposal taller than 375', there would be some discussion, some fight from 99 West folk, but it would get approved anyway.

That is incorrect. The 375' is the allowable max and buildings can be taller with conditional use approval. I always felt the City Council should allow for the same on the CC block. Allow them to build up to the 375' and allow for taller if certain conditions are met. This decision by City Council sounds as if it is 375' max with no additional height allowed for any reason.

The ironic part about the recommendation that it go on the south site nearly negates the stupid complaints by 99 West residents anyway. Some of the lower SW corner residents will have their views blocked but luckily for those really wealthy owners on the upper levels there won't be any problems.

I also agree with you Makid, once DDRM comes up with a design to attempt to accommodate a 1,000 room hotel on the south site, (even though they preferred the north site) I estimate they will come up with an additional concept of a taller, less massive in width version and attempt to have the 375' limit lifted.

I never envisioned anything earth shattering or skyline altering above 550', but I did anticipate that it would be around 400-450 and possible a new tallest by a few feet.

Overall this is a bad decision by City Council.

[millhouse]

I was talking with an engineer working on the CCH. The hotel chain that is working with them on design is known for iconic beautiful buildings. I am not worried about the height restriction. We are going to get something we will all be very happy with.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by millhouse

I was talking with an engineer working on the CCH. The hotel chain that is working with them on design is known for iconic beautiful buildings. I am not worried about the height restriction. We are going to get something we will all be very happy with.

While that is good news to hear, but here is where I can't wrap my mind around 1,000 room in 375'.

The Grand America has the following specs.
The Grand America has 700 rooms.
The tower is 328' tall and roughly 321' long
Two smaller buildings with rooms to the south, each at 4 stories tall and about 200' long.
The majority of it's convention space is no even in the tower.
Roughly 45,000 - 60,000 sf of meeting space.

South east corner of the Salt Palace.
The longest section of space on the SE corner of the Salt Palace is roughly 300' long, the frontage on W. Temple, and the south frontage is roughly 175'.
The new hotel will need to include convention space, although I can't remember how much of the top of my head, but I would guess at least the same if not more than what the Grand America has.

So how exactly, even with an L shape design, is a hotel supposed to accommodate 60,000 sf or more of meeting space, an additional 300 rooms, on a much smaller footprint in only 47', all while not blocking the solar panels?

[Makid]

FM, the meeting space is 8 to 10 sq ft for each room. So 1,000 rooms would be 80,000 sq ft to 100,000 sq ft of meeting space.

I am hopeful that the limit will be raised only because I am not sure (like others here) how 1,000 rooms will fit with the amount of meeting space needed in the 375' limit.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

That is incorrect. The 375' is the allowable max and buildings can be taller with conditional use approval. I always felt the City Council should allow for the same on the CC block. Allow them to build up to the 375' and allow for taller if certain conditions are met. This decision by City Council sounds as if it is 375' max with no additional height allowed for any reason.

Yeah you're right. Like I say I wasn't sure what the precise language was but I decided to look it up and it establishes an absolute max of 375'. That being true, then I agree it's a weird decision and makes little sense, unless...they already know DDRM isn't planning on building anything taller. Which I think is the case.

For anyone interested in reading about the details from the meeting here's a link:

http://slcgov.iqm2.com/Citizens/Detail_L...ID=1138&MediaPosition=&ID=1609&CssClass=

The exact ordinance is found in the Motion Sheet for June 7. In the document it is motion 3.

Also, from the staff report it says the following:

Salt Lake County is seeking to build a convention center hotel that will hold between 750 rooms and 1,000 rooms. The developer negotiating with the County is considering an 850 room hotel that would be about 25 stories. Salt Lake County is considering two locations on the Salt Palace Convention Center site.

So it looks like DDRM is considering a building that would be about 25 stories. That will definitely be less than 375'.