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  #11381  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 12:48 PM
1487 1487 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
And breakdown the demo of this "majority" for me. Are they progressive, highly educated, highly mobile, urban-focused, upper middle-class wage-earners who are stuffing the city's bars, restaurants, shops and shows 24/7/365? Ya know, the group of people that every city is punching each other in the face to attract? The answer is no.

You understand that pleasing a group of 60something retirees from South or West Philly who are a net-loss to the city's coffers simply because they are a consistent and loyal voting block - and you want to stay in office - is not in the best interest of the city, right?
Let me clue you in since you seem to be oblivious to life outside of the boundaries of center city. There are middle class taxpaying citizens all over the city. That includes areas you probably don't visit or can't identify on a map. The city needs to attract and retain all kinds of taxpaying people. Not just the demographic you care about living in the areas you care about living the the $500k new homes you are concerned about. This city is more than high income whites living in gentrifies areas and old Philadelphians who have been in the same home for 40 years. There's a lot more groups out there even if they are people on your radar on in your social circle. The city needs to compete to maintain a wide swath of people because contrary to your ignorant stance, the entire city economy cannot survive on the backs of newcomers living in abated housing. A LOT of people spend money in the city- not all of them live within 1 mile of CC boundaries. I don't live in CC and I spend plenty of money in CC and have done so for years. While I may not count to you because I live outside of the CCD's absurd new Greater Center City boundaries I assure you I pay a lot of taxes and spend a decent amount of money within Philadelphia. So whether you like it or not a lot of people living inside and outside of gentrifying areas are not understanding why people who can afford $400k-$500k homes need a tax break to help make ends meet. Now I understand your position that the city government and other residents should be getting on their knees begging the folks who buy these houses to stay but it's not hard to see why there is some pushback to the idea of tax breaks for upper income people buying "luxury" townhomes and condos. The typical Philadelphia thinking is that "we must bribe people to live here because we are inferior to other trendy cities" but I don't accept that. It may have been true in 97 when the first abatement came into effect, but it's not necessarily true now. If the thinking is that all these valuable newcomers (many of whom RENT BTW) are only here because of abatements than we are in trouble anyway because it means they are all going to move as soon as the abatements expire. Not exactly reassuring and it speaks volumes about their commitment to improving life in Philly.

BTW, a whole lot of people have the option to leave the city and hundreds of thousands have done so for various reasons long before the center city renaissance was in full swing. So the argument that this specific class of educated newcomers should get whatever they want because they are mobile doesn't mean much to me. A whole lot of taxpaying citizens are mobile and many have chosen to move to other regions or to the suburbs for many decades. And shockingly, many taxpayers in outlying neighborhoods have the option to relocate if they feel the city isn't being responsive to their needs.
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  #11382  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 12:53 PM
1487 1487 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
It is evident, Londonee, that he does not get this.

Unless he's actually a city employee, it's hard to understand the guy's refusal to understand this very basic reality.
The funny thing is many public sector workers (the people you hate, or at least one of the many demographics you hate) make decent salaries, have degrees (bachelors and masters) and many of the younger ones live in and around CC. Public sector workers are actually more educated than the general workforce. But you know everything so you know that.

Also, anyone who believes that the ONLY people who spend money and attend restauarants/bars/clubs in CC are CC residents is delusional. I've never lived downtown and I've spent lots of time and money in countless CC establishments over last 15 years. What world do you live in? Have you ever been north of Vine street? South of Christian Street? Can you name more than 4 Philly zip codes?
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  #11383  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 12:55 PM
1487 1487 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Here are the renderings and the website:





http://onefranklintower.com/index.html
Can't wait for that to be done. Existing building didn't age well at all.
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  #11384  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 1:57 PM
Elevator1 Elevator1 is offline
 
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Interesting, the 4 gentlemen crossing against the light in the bottom picture.
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  #11385  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 2:01 PM
Tlphila Tlphila is offline
 
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  #11386  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 2:01 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Elevator1 View Post
Interesting, the 4 gentlemen crossing against the light in the bottom picture.
Ha! Didn't notice them before. Someone obviously has a sense of humor (and is a Beatles fan).
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  #11387  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 2:01 PM
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PHL10 PHL10 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Elevator1 View Post
Interesting, the 4 gentlemen crossing against the light in the bottom picture.
Good catch, I didn't notice those 4 British looking lads until you mentioned it.
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  #11388  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 2:18 PM
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iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Elevator1 View Post
Interesting, the 4 gentlemen crossing against the light in the bottom picture.
That's not Abbey Road, either. LOL.
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  #11389  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 2:38 PM
br323206 br323206 is offline
 
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A lot of people mad about properties with homes getting reassessed while vacant lots nearby are not, but they must've missed the fact that the city has already said the vacant lots will be reassessed too.

"Vacant lots will still be a part of the 2017 reassessment project, but those notices won’t go out for another two or three months."

Also, I think most economists would agree the city is making the right move. It may piss off a few people but it's good for the city in the long run. Plus, the number of people seeing tax increases is actually very small.

http://planphilly.com/articles/2016/04/20/2017-property-tax-assessments-shift-more-value-to-land
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  #11390  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 3:43 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by br323206 View Post
A lot of people mad about properties with homes getting reassessed while vacant lots nearby are not, but they must've missed the fact that the city has already said the vacant lots will be reassessed too.

"Vacant lots will still be a part of the 2017 reassessment project, but those notices won’t go out for another two or three months."

Also, I think most economists would agree the city is making the right move. It may piss off a few people but it's good for the city in the long run. Plus, the number of people seeing tax increases is actually very small.

http://planphilly.com/articles/2016/04/20/2017-property-tax-assessments-shift-more-value-to-land
I think it will piss less people off once the vacant lot and parking lot reassessments go out. I agree overall though, it is the right move.
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  #11391  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 4:36 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
 
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Originally Posted by br323206 View Post
A lot of people mad about properties with homes getting reassessed while vacant lots nearby are not, but they must've missed the fact that the city has already said the vacant lots will be reassessed too.
Will this really happen? Hope so, we'll see. I posted this in Phillyspeaks, but I'll post it here too:

Basic logic would dictate that the vacant land reassessment should have been done first, followed by the improved land reassessment a year later; or at least simultaneously.

But, truly, I'll believe it when I see it. But it is "convenient" that it has been delayed. I won't be at all surprised if it is delayed further, to enable speculators a longer "adjustment period".

It is easy to imagine Darrell Clarke speechifying next year "it is unfair to expect small neighborhood investors [read: my friends and cronies] who purchased a property in good faith many years ago [read: have been long-term speculators and blighters waiting for PHA or city-sponsored not-for-profit to buy out their property at an inflated price] to suddenly be faced with a major tax increase unawares . . . . "

Many of us are aware that many, many property speculators and slum/blightlords in fringe up-and-coming neighborhoods are various political insiders, patronage slugs, ward leaders, judges, union honchos, and their relatives. For decades, like mini-Rappaports, many of these people had been buying near-worthless slum properties for a pittance, waiting for some government-subsidized redevelopment project to come along that would enable them to flip for big profit on the public dime.

For years, it never dawned on them - or most other people, for that matter - that actual market rate development would reach the fringes of Temple, Kensington, Point Breeze, Strawberry Mansion, and enable them to realize heretofore undreamed of profits. Now the speculation is really paying off, legitimately . . . . assuming they can keep paying next to nothing in property tax to subsidize perpetual speculation.

It is difficult to imagine these well-connected speculator/political insiders have not had any influence in the quirky reassessment timeline we are now faced with.

Conveniently, the one year delay gives them time to devise:
  • the most profitable exit strategy - like selling holdings to unsuspecting newcomers who are unaware that their taxes will be quintupled in a year; or
  • (more likely) strategies to delay the vacant land tax increases altogether or to finesse clever ways to carve out their key holdings from any increases.

Could the strange timing be just a strange accident? Possibly, but very unlikely.

Anyway, I'll believe it when I see it, as I said. I hope it happens ASAP.
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  #11392  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 4:47 PM
br323206 br323206 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
Will this really happen? Hope so, we'll see. I posted this in Phillyspeaks, but I'll post it here too:

Basic logic would dictate that the vacant land reassessment should have been done first, followed by the improved land reassessment a year later; or at least simultaneously.

But, truly, I'll believe it when I see it. But it is "convenient" that it has been delayed. I won't be at all surprised if it is delayed further, to enable speculators a longer "adjustment period".

It is easy to imagine Darrell Clarke speechifying next year "it is unfair to expect small neighborhood investors [read: my friends and cronies] who purchased a property in good faith many years ago [read: have been long-term speculators and blighters waiting for PHA or city-sponsored not-for-profit to buy out their property at an inflated price] to suddenly be faced with a major tax increase unawares . . . . "

Many of us are aware that many, many property speculators and slum/blightlords in fringe up-and-coming neighborhoods are various political insiders, patronage slugs, ward leaders, judges, union honchos, and their relatives. For decades, like mini-Rappaports, many of these people had been buying near-worthless slum properties for a pittance, waiting for some government-subsidized redevelopment project to come along that would enable them to flip for big profit on the public dime.

For years, it never dawned on them - or most other people, for that matter - that actual market rate development would reach the fringes of Temple, Kensington, Point Breeze, Strawberry Mansion, and enable them to realize heretofore undreamed of profits. Now the speculation is really paying off, legitimately . . . . assuming they can keep paying next to nothing in property tax to subsidize perpetual speculation.

It is difficult to imagine these well-connected speculator/political insiders have not had any influence in the quirky reassessment timeline we are now faced with.

Conveniently, the one year delay gives them time to devise:
  • the most profitable exit strategy - like selling holdings to unsuspecting newcomers who are unaware that their taxes will be quintupled in a year; or
  • (more likely) strategies to delay the vacant land tax increases altogether or to finesse clever ways to carve out their key holdings from any increases.

Could the strange timing be just a strange accident? Possibly, but very unlikely.

Anyway, I'll believe it when I see it, as I said. I hope it happens ASAP.
They were supposed to happen all at once but there was a flaw in the methodology that affected the vacant lots. That's the city's story. I have no reason not to believe it. There's a perception that Philadelphia city government is corrupt. Certainly that was true for many years, but I think the reputation hasn't caught up to the reality. I don't personally work in city government in Philadelphia but I know many good people that do and they are trying their best to correct the problems of the past.
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  #11393  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 5:01 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
 
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Originally Posted by br323206 View Post
I don't personally work in city government in Philadelphia but I know many good people that do and they are trying their best to correct the problems of the past.
I personally know many GREAT people who work for the City. Those people are not the problem, as you point out. The problem is the people (from Darrell Clarke and Bob Brady on down to the legions of cronies in their respective feeding processions) who do everything they can to prevent the decent, talented people from implementing what needs to be done to elevate Philadelphia from its tenuously maintained second-tier status.

Like I said, I hope the City follows through as indicated and taxes the ever-loving daylights out of blight speculators.

But I'll believe it when I see it, and not a fraction of a second earlier.

Any Philadelphian who is not a skeptic is a fool.
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  #11394  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 5:03 PM
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Knight Hospitaller Knight Hospitaller is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
Any Philadelphian who is not a skeptic is a fool.
Sad but true. I'd venture to say that it is actually a requirement if one is to be worthy of the name.
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  #11395  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 7:22 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
 
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Originally Posted by br323206 View Post
A lot of people mad about properties with homes getting reassessed while vacant lots nearby are not, but they must've missed the fact that the city has already said the vacant lots will be reassessed too.

"Vacant lots will still be a part of the 2017 reassessment project, but those notices won’t go out for another two or three months."

Also, I think most economists would agree the city is making the right move. It may piss off a few people but it's good for the city in the long run. Plus, the number of people seeing tax increases is actually very small.

http://planphilly.com/articles/2016/04/20/2017-property-tax-assessments-shift-more-value-to-land
This a million times.
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  #11396  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 7:32 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Philly-Drew View Post
I couldn't agree with you more Boku! Sometimes 1487, you also have to look at yourself, as possibly being off base. I live in NoLibs, my house is probably worth around 900k, and I don't have an abatement. Most people moving into my neighborhood are in the $100K-$175k household range income range. Give them the abatement! Not nearly as many empty nesters here. I've paid more in city wage tax, in one year, than most of the "long term" residents have in 10 years on property tax. And that's Every year. Also, my spouse and I spend a heap load on restaraunts, uber, shopping, etc.

"A bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush!" We have a ton of bird in hands here. Development that will continue to pay dividends for years to come.

Get over the tax abatement. It is working wonders right now. All those abatement a will mature in 10 years.
The abatements are already starting to expire. And for the most part, from what I can see...those folks are sticking around. The abatement has been an incentive to get people who were perhaps on the fence about city living...in the city...in other words, it tipped the balance.

There are a lot of people in the suburbs (Jersey and PA) who pay $10K, $15K, $20K a year in property taxes. They see the abatement and they grab it...but once they're here...they realize they love it and they don't want to leave. Whatever increase they experience in wage tax is more than offset by what they're no longer paying in suburban property taxes...and when their abatements expire, their new tax bills are still lower than what they'd be paying on a comparably valued house in the burbs...so it's a win-win-win.

I split my time between Philly and NYC (work in NYC now), but also have a house in NoLibs. It's rented out now (and I just bought another one in Germantown), but the new people coming in for the most part, from what I can see, are from outside the city or even the region. They're involved and trying to make things better.

As for the land values...increase them, abated property or not. Anything that shakes vacant land out of the hands of speculators is good in my opinion. It's comical how low property taxes are in some peripheral neighborhoods.
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  #11397  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 10:07 AM
eixample eixample is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Tlphila View Post
This is a good article. I thought that other editorial was pretty ridiculous and I also thought 1487 made a lot of good points. I would also wager that for every one of those upwardly mobile young professional new arrivals who is pissed that their abatement went away in some sort of bait and switch, there are two others who don't live in abated properties and are glad that the city is making them pay a little more of their share.
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  #11398  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 2:16 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
 
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
This is a good article. I thought that other editorial was pretty ridiculous and I also thought 1487 made a lot of good points. I would also wager that for every one of those upwardly mobile young professional new arrivals who is pissed that their abatement went away in some sort of bait and switch, there are two others who don't live in abated properties and are glad that the city is making them pay a little more of their share.
It was a good article .

However, in addition to glossing over the essential fact that blight speculators have yet to be hit with big fat assessments - ironically, the foremost objective of a land tax . . . but they'll be reassessed soon we are told . . . - it misses a few other key points :

The abatements are not a moral issue, some kind of unfair freebie to buyers. They are a financial transaction. And the City has decided unilaterally to walk out on its side of the deal to raise revenue.

The bait and switch is very real, and it's this:

When someone buys a tax abated house, they pay a premium to buy it. I.e., hypothetically if you sell two identical houses (in quality, location, etc.), one with an abatement and one without, the one with the abatement will sell for the price of the unabated house plus the present value of the ten year tax abatement. If the tax abatement is worth, say $5,000 per year, that's probably worth, say, a $40,000 price premium.

Incidentally, anyone who resents those with abatements can get an abatement too by selling his/her house and buying an equivalent abated one. But guess what: the transaction will be a wash because you will sell your house for less than the one you buy, so all the benefit of the new abatement will be ploughed into the higher purchase price for the new house.

The same applies to all people who bought abated houses: they paid for that abatement. The builder pocketed the money, but presumably used some or most of the premium to build a nicer product than might ordinarily have been possible . . . which was, by design, exactly what the City wanted: an inducement to get builders to build more decent, market rate housing in the city. Which, in theory anyway, improves the whole neighborhood as well as the QOL for everyone where this is happening.

So what the City has done is say to abatement holders: now that we snagged you into subsidizing builders to undertake urban redevelopment that benefits everyone, per the design of the abatement program, we are coming back to take away some of what you paid for: you paid $40,000 for an abatement that, surprise, we are making worth only $20,000 now. Because we can. And you can't do anything about it! Ha ha ha!

That is bad faith dealing, the worst kind. Bait and switch all the way. Not a good way to win the loyalty of a new class of young professionals whom this city desperately needs to keep living here, paying all sorts of taxes and supporting all kinds of businesses, schools, and neighborhood improvements.

Yes, these are a relatively small portion of the population, but it is disproportionately made up of exactly the kind of people the City needs to be welcoming, not — off with sleazy old school Bob Brady/John Dougherty/Darrell Clarke backroom —.

If you want to create bad blood with these people, this is the way to do it. And it's very bad for all of us who have an interest in this city becoming better educated, more professional, and more economically balanced and sustainable. Remaining an impoverished city of primarily uneducated people heavily reliant on government support is the default. This action by the City is a great move to help make sure we stay that way (one of many Jim Kenney and our dynamic Clarke-led City Council seem to be contemplating going forward).

This — for anyone who lives in a decent neighborhood and who wants to see it get better, regardless of whether or not s/he has an abatement.
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  #11399  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 3:55 PM
eixample eixample is offline
 
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There was a transaction, but the city wasn't a party to the transaction and hasn't changed the way the abatement works. The point that more recent Newsworks article makes is that raising the proportion of property taxes that is based on land is a good thing and recognizes where the value of the property comes from. That doesn't sound like a dirty trick to me. The only thing they (arguably) should have done is 1. do a better job at getting the land value right, 2. not imposed the change until the abatement was done or 3. phase the increases in. I just don't see why anyone argues that it was wrong to do this readjustment or that it was done in bad faith.
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  #11400  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 6:43 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
 
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
The point that more recent Newsworks article makes is that raising the proportion of property taxes that is based on land is a good thing
Absolutely. It's just unfortunate that they chose to impose a land tax on people with new improvements and investments, but not the people with empty undeveloped land and blighted properties. Pretty backwards, but the norm for Philly. We'll have to wait and see whether they follow through with the actual land tax on people with just . . . . land. The point of a land-value oriented tax.

Quote:
The only thing they (arguably) should have done is . . . not imposed the change until the abatement was done
That would have been the right way to deal with it.
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