Sports in Canadian culture

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

None of these things are possible in North America. It's where North American leagues lose out on maintaining interest in larger cities and smaller regions as a whole.

They only lose out to a point. The biggest leagues in the US like NFL, MLB and NBA have pretty good interest across that country even where they don't have teams. It's tougher for the NHL and MLS to generate interest in regions with no teams or even in areas where local teams are out of the running.

CFL is similarly challenged in Canada.

The NHL playoffs used to be followed across Canada quite intensively regardless of who was playing, but that seems to be changing quite rapidly, and heavy focus in now more restricted to local clubs in our cities, and Canadian clubs more broadly.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

All of this nonsense about Canadian teams winning the Cup is blown so out of proportion it's silly.

Tell that to the Sportsnet exec who's standing on a chair with a rope around his neck right now.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Canada isn't strong enough to have it's own major professional leagues on the same level and has to leech off of American interests to stay afloat and relevant.

What a ridiculous comment to go with the rest of the Euro trash drivel.

If by "on the same level" you mean comparing to the biggest financial sports empires in the world (USA) of course not. But if you're not using that as a comparable, leagues can still be relevant. The lower leagues in England, are they irrelevant if they are compared to the BPL? Doesn't that kill your espousing of pro/rel?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I think the European football system is awesome too, and I love how organic the community involvement is at the levels under the elite level

When they have a sponsor name on the front of a shirt nothing is organic. And that goes back to the late 70s? when I used to watch Candy playing Vodaphone.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Right now there is no Canadian pro hockey team playing for anything meaningful at all. In any competition. (Arguably, it's been five years since it was last the case.)

The AHL is pretty low profile but it's still professional hockey. I'd say that the Calder Cup is meaningful.

Originally Posted by JHikka

Why does this matter? An overwhelming majority of the players are still Canadian. It's literally just where the games are being played that's different.

I keep seeing this kind of reasoning. Americans said the same thing when the Jays first won the World Series. But at the end of the day where the players come from is mostly irrelevant. Leafs fans aren't any less excited about Austin Matthews because he's American. Fans of the Jays, Raptors and the entire CFL aren't any less interested because the vast majority of the players are American. Manchester United fans haven't abandoned their team because it has players from Argentina and the Netherlands. And the Washington Capitals being led by a Russian doesn't make the team any less American. At the end of the day people's loyalties lie with their team, not the origins of the players.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The AHL is pretty low profile but it's still professional hockey. I'd say that the Calder Cup is meaningful.


.

Correct.

OK, well I managed to overlook the fact that the Marlies are in the Calder Cup playoffs. Along with what percentage of Canadians?

I am not sure if that proves my point or if it proves the other side of the argument.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I keep seeing this kind of reasoning. Americans said the same thing when the Jays first won the World Series. But at the end of the day where the players come from is mostly irrelevant. Leafs fans aren't any less excited about Austin Matthews because he's American. Fans of the Jays, Raptors and the entire CFL aren't any less interested because the vast majority of the players are American. Manchester United fans haven't abandoned their team because it has players from Argentina and the Netherlands. And the Washington Capitals being led by a Russian doesn't make the team any less American. At the end of the day people's loyalties lie with their team, not the origins of the players.

I don't know about that. It's true to a point, but I'd prefer if the Leafs had the option to pick a Canadian trained player as number one. In 1947 wouldn't black fans of the Dodgers have rather they signed Jackie Robinson than not. Wouldn't a large number of CFL fans like to see the second coming of Russ Jackson playing in the CFL. A Canadian QB, would be, ironically the Jackie Robinson of the CFL.

Sure you want the best player possible but you also want somebody the fans can identify (and even) empathize with.

[esquire]

^ If the Manitoba Moose were still in the Calder Cup playoffs I'd definitely be going to as many games as I could make it out to, but watching the Marlies isn't really an option as I don't think the games are televised, unless maybe there is a streaming service that the AHL offers.

FWIW the NBA D-League streams games live on YouTube for free... if the AHL did the same I'd definitely watch the odd game.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by elly63

When they have a sponsor name on the front of a shirt nothing is organic.

So the house league hockey team I played goalie for at the age of 6, "Howe's Insurance," was not organic? Local sports sponsorship by local businesses isn't organic?

You're blathering and you don't know what you're talking about. That the system of European football is more organic than professional sports in North America is an objective, inarguable fact. There is an actual connection between the ten or so tiers of football clubs in England and the most popular and legendary sports organizations in the world. This year Sheffield United, in the third tier, played Manchester United in the FA Cup tournament, for example.

So when will the Toronto Marlies be suiting up against the Montreal Canadiens for any game whatsoever, much less a game that actually means a massively great huge fucking deal? That's right: never.

The die-hard Captain Canada act is getting old. I mean, I'm with you when you say it's tough to identify with something when your team is never involved (again, for a contrast, see European football for how organically everything from top to bottom is interconnected), and I agree that it's a damn shame that we're so overshadowed by the U.S. that you get NCAA coverage ahead of Canadian university coverage, but it doesn't help your argument when you denigrate things that you don't understand or refuse to acknowledge the good points of situations in other countries.

Sometimes some things are better than others, and we could learn from them. There are so many aspects of the European football system that are so obviously superior to the way that North American professional sports are run that you could write a book. From the lack of meaningless games due to the lack of "post-season" playoffs, to relegation and promotion between levels, to the organic (there's that word again) connection between the different tiers, to the community involvement and ownership of most of the teams (obviously not all--it helps being a rich Arab if you want to own a football club in the Premier League), to the fan experience in the stands--it's all exponentially superior to what we have here. Leaps and bounds better.

I can acknowledge all that, and still be excited about game 4 tonight between the Raptors and the Heat. Featuring, as it does, a local boy named Cory Joseph playing a crucial role as a backup point guard for Toronto. Hey, look: a connection!

I can also acknowledge that Americans and Canadians still fill the stadiums without knowing and/or caring that so many aspects of sports here really do suck, comparatively: the top-down enforcement of cheering in the form of organists, announcers ("Let's Go!" "Defence!") and cheerleaders; the time-outs; the commercial breaks; the yawning lack of action in between moments of actual action; the bizarre and childish unwillingness to let games end in a draw; the lack of organic (that word again) traditions created by the supporters themselves instead of designed by marketing interns, etc.

Because as much as the NBA and American sports culture make basketball almost unwatchable, I still watch it because I like the game itself.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I can also acknowledge that Americans and Canadians still fill the stadiums without knowing and/or caring that so many aspects of sports here really do suck, comparatively: the top-down enforcement of cheering in the form of organists, announcers ("Let's Go!" "Defence!") and cheerleaders; the time-outs; the commercial breaks; the yawning lack of action in between moments of actual action; the bizarre and childish unwillingness to let games end in a draw; the lack of organic (that word again) traditions created by the supporters themselves instead of designed by marketing interns, etc.

.

I like the multiple competitions that a club can be a part of during a given year: the main league (in their division), the "national" cup like the Coupe de France, Coppa d'Italia (involving all clubs in the country regardless of division), the various UEFA competitions, etc.

I suppose someone who is utterly convinced of the superiority of the NA model would dismiss most of these as bogus cups, but that's not the case and they are generally quite competitive. It really keeps things more interesting for the fans.

[Acajack]

I think for a pro sports league where you really want to be is for people to pay attention to your product even if they don't have a civic or regional stake in it.

The NFL is the best example of this. Go to a sports bar in Anchorage, Alaska when some random AFC wild card game between the Miami Dolphins and Kansas City Chiefs is being played. The place will be packed with people watching the game.

The NHL *used* to be like that in Canada. I am originally from the Maritimes. I can assure that not that long ago sports bars in Halifax, Moncton, Charlottetown were packed for Stanley Cup games, regardless of the teams. These days? There are people watching for sure, but not like before.

This is not a concern of mine. Just an observation.

But it should be a concern for the NHL. And Rogers especially.

[esquire]

^ I honestly don't know how any fan could conclude that the North American style of franchised sports leagues plus the model of using a regular season only to determine playoff entry is in any way superior to the European approach.

[Acajack]

We do have some additional trophies in some of our leagues, like the NHL's President's Trophy. But they are largely meaningless to both fans and players alike.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I honestly don't know how any fan could conclude that the North American style of franchised sports leagues plus the model of using a regular season only to determine playoff entry is in any way superior to the European approach.

It's seen as superior because it's what people are used to, that's all.

[rousseau]

We covered all this in a thread from a few years ago: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=203690.

I just searched and found it, and browsed through it. There are some real howlers: the NFL is the most popular league in the world, no playoffs in European football means that effectively all of the teams "make" the playoffs, the trophy gets "handed" to the team with the most points instead of having playoffs, etc.

Sometimes I think the internet is one big billboard set up for people to declare: "I'm stupid."

[elly63]

Originally Posted by rousseau

So when will the Toronto Marlies be suiting up against the Montreal Canadiens for any game whatsoever, much less a game that actually means a massively great huge fucking deal? That's right: never.

Sometimes some things are better than others, and we could learn from them. There are so many aspects of the European football system that are so obviously superior to the way that North American professional sports are run that you could write a book. From the lack of meaningless games due to the lack of "post-season" playoffs, to relegation and promotion between levels, to the organic (there's that word again) connection between the different tiers, to the community involvement and ownership of most of the teams (obviously not all--it helps being a rich Arab if you want to own a football club in the Premier League), to the fan experience in the stands--it's all exponentially superior to what we have here. Leaps and bounds better.

Sorry but your Euro wannabeeism doesn't apply here and that has nothing to do with me and my "Captain Canada" attitude.

We have no recent history or want for pro/rel as they do in Europe. You think someone over here wants to pay a billion bucks for a team like New York and end up playing in a league against Peoria? Give your head a shake, both of them. Maybe in Europe they're crazy enough to do that but they're also crazy enough to go to war with each other every half century or so and we have to bail them out. I like it the way we have it here just fine thank you.

Is there a reason I would like to see the Marlies play the Habs?

Yes, the fan experience is exponentially better over there. I have a good chance of getting my head smashed in if I wear my team's jersey to an opposing stadium or not sitting in the right place without police protection or walking in the wrong direction outside the stadium. Much better that they have things so exponentially more in perspective.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Sometimes I think the internet is one big billboard set up for people to declare: "I'm stupid."

I believe condescension and patronization come under that umbrella.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The NHL *used* to be like that in Canada. I am originally from the Maritimes. I can assure that not that long ago sports bars in Halifax, Moncton, Charlottetown were packed for Stanley Cup games, regardless of the teams. These days? There are people watching for sure, but not like before.

Do you think corporatization is part of that? In the old days names like MLSE or Rogers would have meant nothing, now they are at the forefront. Growing up I watched Harold Ballard's sad sack Leafs not this branch of a corporate conglomerate. Not that I pay much attention but I think it has had an insidious negative effect.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's seen as superior because it's what people are used to, that's all.

Yup, I don't see why the "Euro" people seem to think it is either needed or wanted over here. It isn't.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

Do you think corporatization is part of that? In the old days names like MLSE or Rogers would have meant nothing, now they are at the forefront. Growing up I watched Harold Ballard's sad sack Leafs not this branch of a corporate conglomerate. Not that I pay much attention but I think it has had an insidious negative effect.

Rogers is basically Harold Ballard with more corporate PR spin.