Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Getting a 25% shift premium for working on Sunday is ridiculous. Ask how many unionized airline or hotel employees get that. This isn't 1950.

Voters will be livid if the shift premium isn't dropped. Which means the Drivers union is kinda on the losing side as far as PR is concerned.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

What are the conventions or legislation with regard to naming something an essential service? Because for thousands of people, transit is the only way they can get around. It's not fair for them to be left behind because of a union's unreasonable demands.

And I normally support unions, but this is just crazy. And even if they want to fight for this, fine, but striking should not be allowed. Transit is simply too important for the functioning of this city.

This is a big chunk of why the SoCreds wanted skytrain to be automated. They were very unpopular with the unions, and wanted to be able to keep at least a partial transit system functioning with a strike.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Voters will be livid if the shift premium isn't dropped. Which means the Drivers union is kinda on the losing side as far as PR is concerned.

I get their strategy. Ask for outlandish demands and hope that they meet in the middle. That said, I fully agree with you. This is utterly horrible PR, especially with so many regular folks working for peanuts (under 20/hr and no benefits). I think Translink is the most hated entity in this province right now and I ultimately believe most folks would favour any move to fully privatize the system (I think this would be the worst thing to do).

[MIPS]

Alright, I gotta ask.
Seeing how the restroom at Main Street - Science World is probably the only thing close to a station bathroom in the entire system, how the hell do you use it? Repeatedly I've approached it and the display said it was unoccupied and ready but there's no way to open the door. You push the button and nothing happens. You push and hold the button and nothing happens. It's not a push/pull/slide thing either. I don't think I've ever seen the bathroom in use by anyone. Does it even work?

[officedweller]

That's a City of Vancouver facility.

[ConventionalMan]

Originally Posted by Waders

And if a strike does happen, some people will blame Translink for that.
What is the estimated extra cost for all the benefits the union is demanding and where is the money coming from?
With all the outcry about salary during the transit plebiscite, I actually think all Translink employees, including bus driver, should have a salary freeze if not reduction instead.

This is not about extra cost of NEW demands at all. It is about retaining what is currently there. Concession demands from the company means more than just no raises.

And if you think bus drivers should have their wages frozen or reduced, I suggest you consider that it is not at all like getting in your car and driving to work. It is constant sensory stimulus from all manner of sources and can be very overwhelming at times. Not to mention being sworn at, spit on, punched, barfed on...

My guess is: You wouldn't want to do it. Don't judge.

[ConventionalMan]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Voters will be livid if the shift premium isn't dropped. Which means the Drivers union is kinda on the losing side as far as PR is concerned.

Shift premium goes back to the days when Sundays were considered a rest or family day. It was an incentive to get drivers to work. Having said that, the shifts are generally shorter so the cost would be the same as a normal shift. It is designed to provide an opportunity to spend a little more time at home with the family or what have you.

If that premium goes away, there is a very likely probability that junior operators would not see a weekend off for years.

[Metro-One]

Yeah, time for the classic "We should all be racing to the bottom" 🞵🞵🞵🞵 on this forum.

I think it a great thing that public sector employees still generally earn living wages and benefits for their jobs, someone has to these days.

And people in the private sector, instead of wanting to lower their living down to yours, maybe more attention should be directed to the growing income inequality between the working class and the top and start demanding better wages and benefits for yourself.

Heck, having a well paid public sector at least retains some pressure / precedence for the private sector to pay at least a little better than they likely would if the public sector was also getting paid nothing.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by ShuttleMan

This is not about extra cost of NEW demands at all. It is about retaining what is currently there. Concession demands from the company means more than just no raises.

And if you think bus drivers should have their wages frozen or reduced, I suggest you consider that it is not at all like getting in your car and driving to work. It is constant sensory stimulus from all manner of sources and can be very overwhelming at times. Not to mention being sworn at, spit on, punched, barfed on...

My guess is: You wouldn't want to do it. Don't judge.

No. I won't judge and I am not on either side.
But as a taxpayer, I do care whether more money is required from Translink's operating budget to fund the new contract. Cut might need to be made to some transit service.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by ShuttleMan

Shift premium goes back to the days when Sundays were considered a rest or family day. It was an incentive to get drivers to work. Having said that, the shifts are generally shorter so the cost would be the same as a normal shift. It is designed to provide an opportunity to spend a little more time at home with the family or what have you.

If that premium goes away, there is a very likely probability that junior operators would not see a weekend off for years.

That is a contract problem regarding seniority. Since it was brought to the attention by the Media, that shift premium needs to disappear otherwise it will just paint the drivers union as being greedy. No union job should ever have mandatory overtime features like this. Police forces are already bad enough at this.

Cycle the days off every month, then less people have a reason to complain.
CMBC:
http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/695/CMBC_CAW11122002015.pdf

3.01.1 Payment for Work on Sundays & Stat Holidays
All Sunday shifts will be straight shifts and will pay a minimum of five (5) hours at time and
one-half (150%). Double time (200%) will be paid for all time worked in excess of seven and
one-half (7 1/2) hours.

Transit Operator: 21.27 to 30.38
The Seabus isn't as simple since it's not a one-person job.


http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/1273/CMBC_COPE2015.pdf
Pay scale goes from $15.33/hr to $48.28/hr for the office workers

Actual language about Sunday Shift Premium

Employees who are regularly scheduled to work on Sundays shall be paid at time and one half (1 1/2) for all hours of their regularly scheduled work on those days. This payment will not apply to hours for which overtime rates are paid.

I should probably mention the BCRTC/CUPE7000 agreement while we're here.
http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/625/Skytrain_CUPE70002013.pdf

No mention of Sunday pay, though there is a curious mention of Code India Premium. That I could see that being completely justified.

Outside the lowermainland:
http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/628/BCTransit_CAW2014.pdf

3.01.1 Payment for Work on Sundays and Statutory Holidays
a) All Sunday shifts will be straight shifts and will pay a minimum of five (5) hours at time and
one-half (1 ½x). Double time (2 x) will be paid for all time worked in excess of 7½ hours.

Transit Operator: 18.67 to 27.20
Separate entry for Community Transit Operator: 16.30-21.55



Here's Calgary's:
http://www.atu583.com/sites/default/files/ATU%20583%20-%202014-2018%20Collective%20Agreement.pdf

118 Sunday Work
118.01 Employees whose regular hours require them to work on Sundays shall receive time and one quarter (x1 1/4) for time worked.

I'm not sure if it was deleted because there appears to be two copies of the contact in the pdf, one with it, and one without it.

Calgary's agreement is a little more straightforward about what the hourly rates are
Transit operator: 27.67 to 34.59
Office Work: 19.16 to 61.51

I went looking for TTC's contact but can't find one mentioning a sunday shift premium.

OC Transpo (ATU 279)
http://www.atu279.ca/index.cfm?action=downloadasset&assetid=057b9c5d-2647-4a65-aead-9729aed8f052

Sundays
Pay for regular work shall be time and one quarter (1¼) of the employee’s
basic job classification rate.

Transit Operator: 24.725 to 29.088

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, time for the classic "We should all be racing to the bottom" 🞵🞵🞵🞵 on this forum.

I think it a great thing that public sector employees still generally earn living wages and benefits for their jobs, someone has to these days.

And people in the private sector, instead of wanting to lower their living down to yours, maybe more attention should be directed to the growing income inequality between the working class and the top and start demanding better wages and benefits for yourself.

Heck, having a well paid public sector at least retains some pressure / precedence for the private sector to pay at least a little better than they likely would if the public sector was also getting paid nothing.

I agree with the general sentiment in your post. The race to the bottom is all the rage these days (see: Uber).

However 25% seems excessive. It makes sense that transit is so anemic on Sundays and Holidays. Let's be honest, people aren't sitting at home on Sunday, they want to go places and that means transit.

I have no problem giving bus drivers a fair wage increase, but I think the differential is a relic that holds the overall system back.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, time for the classic "We should all be racing to the bottom" 🞵🞵🞵🞵 on this forum.

I think it a great thing that public sector employees still generally earn living wages and benefits for their jobs, someone has to these days.

And people in the private sector, instead of wanting to lower their living down to yours, maybe more attention should be directed to the growing income inequality between the working class and the top and start demanding better wages and benefits for yourself.

Heck, having a well paid public sector at least retains some pressure / precedence for the private sector to pay at least a little better than they likely would if the public sector was also getting paid nothing.

The reason why you cannot demand higher benefits in private sector through work stoppage is that there is this thing called competition. You don't want to work - well somebody else will, or somebody else's company will get the job done.

The public sector labour uses monopolistic position of its employer to extract whatever they can for their own needs. If you are in such a position that you can literally hold the public hostage you should not be allowed to strike and your employer should not be allowed to lock you out either. All these thing should be automatically resolved through arbitration where arbitrator looks at industry average for salary and benefits and determines them for the labour group.

This is all done in private sector through HR. Any reasonably large company have HR construct pay grades based on industry averages, location, skills and seniority. These averages are adjusted yearly through industry specific data.

I don't think that people are advocating race to the bottom. Rather it should be race to the reasonable position and stop to the 1920-30 nonsense with constant rotation of teacher, garbage removal, and transit strikes.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I agree with the general sentiment in your post. The race to the bottom is all the rage these days (see: Uber).

However 25% seems excessive. It makes sense that transit is so anemic on Sundays and Holidays. Let's be honest, people aren't sitting at home on Sunday, they want to go places and that means transit.

I have no problem giving bus drivers a fair wage increase, but I think the differential is a relic that holds the overall system back.

According to the contracts, the bus drivers and the office staff have a 50% Sunday premium. So does BC Transit's

Ottawa and Calgary have 25%.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by WBC

The reason why you cannot demand higher benefits in private sector through work stoppage is that there is this thing called competition. You don't want to work - well somebody else will, or somebody else's company will get the job done.

Actually that's exactly why you can get better benefits through work stoppages in the private sector. If your employer doesn't concede to your demands (or properly negotiate to find common ground) to end a strike promptly, they can go out of business. Rich wealthy shareholders lose their money. That's why large companies like McDonald's and Walmart are terrified of unions.

A public sector strike puts the pressure on politicians who might lose their jobs come election time, but, Translink obfuscates the connection between politicians and workers with a lot of bureaucracy. No mater how long a strike might go on for, Translink and CMBC will still exist.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, time for the classic "We should all be racing to the bottom" 🞵🞵🞵🞵 on this forum.

I think it a great thing that public sector employees still generally earn living wages and benefits for their jobs, someone has to these days.

And people in the private sector, instead of wanting to lower their living down to yours, maybe more attention should be directed to the growing income inequality between the working class and the top and start demanding better wages and benefits for yourself.

Heck, having a well paid public sector at least retains some pressure / precedence for the private sector to pay at least a little better than they likely would if the public sector was also getting paid nothing.

This is an argument that I generally strongly agree with, but in this situation, there has to be a way to get it done without striking. I'm not going to pretend to know anything about how unions function or the politics involved in them, but it should not be this easy for them to go and screw over thousands of people. Whether you agree with their demands or not, doesn't matter. They should be able to fight for what they believe are their rights. All that matters is that the public doesn't suffer throughout this.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This is an argument that I generally strongly agree with, but in this situation, there has to be a way to get it done without striking. I'm not going to pretend to know anything about how unions function or the politics involved in them, but it should not be this easy for them to go and screw over thousands of people. Whether you agree with their demands or not, doesn't matter. They should be able to fight for what they believe are their rights. All that matters is that the public doesn't suffer throughout this.

Public suffering (eg bad PR against the employer) is how Unions negotiate. Ever notice that in the weeks leading up to a contact expiry, the bad PR mill starts up, even if the employer was negotiating in good faith?

A lot of the anti-Union sentiment came along when the NDP was kicked out, because Glen Clark was a Union guy and essentially required any business that dealt with the government to be unionized. So in some ways the "cry me a river" routine hasn't worked in BC since the NDP was last in power.

I'm not entirely against the concept of unions, but public-sector unions are often complaining about problems that are entirely self-inflicted. "We are overworked, have to take too much overtime" - Employer wanting to hire as few people as possible because you can't fire union workers. "We aren't being paid fairly" - Always nonsense when you compare against other public and private sector jobs in the same sector. "something automation destroys jobs" - forcing the employer to be less efficient for the sake of keeping jobs.

Wasn't it a few months ago that the Drivers union was balking at testing automated buses, that Translink would get for free?

There are certainly places that need to be unionized (eg grocery stores) because the working conditions are often terrible, but sometimes the union actually makes the job worse (see the Westfair/Loblaws/Safeway UFCW247 pay scales are below minimum wage.) That's why Walmart's lack-of-union tends to look favorable, even to staff, because they at least get minimum wage. Neither employer has to pay benefits to part-timer workers, and all they hire are part-timers to ensure they never have to pay benefits.

There is something wrong with labour laws when you can say "you don't need to pay benefits" to some segment of the population merely by rigging it so that all your employees are perpetually part-time.

The living wage for Metro Vancouver is 20.64/hr (for a two-parent, two child family)

[ConventionalMan]

Originally Posted by Kisai

That is a contract problem regarding seniority. Since it was brought to the attention by the Media, that shift premium needs to disappear otherwise it will just paint the drivers union as being greedy. No union job should ever have mandatory overtime features like this. Police forces are already bad enough at this.

Cycle the days off every month, then less people have a reason to complain.
CMBC:
http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/695/CMBC_CAW11122002015.pdf



Transit Operator: 21.27 to 30.38
The Seabus isn't as simple since it's not a one-person job.


http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/1273/CMBC_COPE2015.pdf
Pay scale goes from $15.33/hr to $48.28/hr for the office workers

Actual language about Sunday Shift Premium



I should probably mention the BCRTC/CUPE7000 agreement while we're here.
http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/625/Skytrain_CUPE70002013.pdf

No mention of Sunday pay, though there is a curious mention of Code India Premium. That I could see that being completely justified.

Outside the lowermainland:
http://www.bcbargaining.ca/content/628/BCTransit_CAW2014.pdf



Transit Operator: 18.67 to 27.20
Separate entry for Community Transit Operator: 16.30-21.55



Here's Calgary's:
http://www.atu583.com/sites/default/files/ATU%20583%20-%202014-2018%20Collective%20Agreement.pdf

I'm not sure if it was deleted because there appears to be two copies of the contact in the pdf, one with it, and one without it.

Calgary's agreement is a little more straightforward about what the hourly rates are
Transit operator: 27.67 to 34.59
Office Work: 19.16 to 61.51

I went looking for TTC's contact but can't find one mentioning a sunday shift premium.

OC Transpo (ATU 279)
http://www.atu279.ca/index.cfm?action=downloadasset&assetid=057b9c5d-2647-4a65-aead-9729aed8f052



Transit Operator: 24.725 to 29.088

Based on your examples, it is clearly not something that is exclusive to Vancouver drivers.

It is also not unusual for Sunday work or any extra hours (or special jobs) to be incentivised; and not just in unions. For example, one of my previous employers (non-union) paid us in Keg gift cards to "volunteer" to work the auto show for a few hours a day.

Also, you mention mandatory overtime. It is not. The Sunday shifts are shorter (generally) so the cost is the same as a regular shift. Any ACTUAL overtime that may come up as a result of uncovered shifts or sickness, etc. is volunteer basis. The only time there is no choice is if there is a delay during a regular shift and the operator cannot get back for his/her finish time.

I do hear the arguments and accept that there is a lot of concern over funding but I also submit that there are many, many nuances and moving parts to this whole situation. Sunday premium is a part for sure, but one among many. It's definitely not as simple as the media tends to make it out.

[ConventionalMan]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This is an argument that I generally strongly agree with, but in this situation, there has to be a way to get it done without striking. I'm not going to pretend to know anything about how unions function or the politics involved in them, but it should not be this easy for them to go and screw over thousands of people. Whether you agree with their demands or not, doesn't matter. They should be able to fight for what they believe are their rights. All that matters is that the public doesn't suffer throughout this.

I tend to agree too. And honestly, nobody WANTS or can AFFORD a strike, but sometimes a show of strength is needed to convince the powers that be that the backs of the workers can only bend so far.

What this extremely strong 98% support vote does is shows the employer that the bargaining committee has the backing of their members and that they are not just a few guys making decisions on everyones' behalf.

Keep in mind too that there are still two firm dates set for the two sides to sit down and make a deal, May 9 and May 24. My feeling is that there's a long way to go still before a full strike happens.

[ConventionalMan]

Originally Posted by Kisai

There are certainly places that need to be unionized (eg grocery stores) because the working conditions are often terrible, but sometimes the union actually makes the job worse (see the Westfair/Loblaws/Safeway UFCW247 pay scales are below minimum wage.) That's why Walmart's lack-of-union tends to look favorable, even to staff, because they at least get minimum wage. Neither employer has to pay benefits to part-timer workers, and all they hire are part-timers to ensure they never have to pay benefits.


The living wage for Metro Vancouver is 20.64/hr (for a two-parent, two child family)

You make good points in your whole post but highlighted a particular bit and I want to ask a question and I'm not trying to be combatative at all... my question: Do you use transit on a regular basis?

The reason I ask is because working conditions are a huge part of the concerns right now. Lack of time in a scheduled run to do basic things like have a washroom break, a quick bite to eat or even a short walk after sitting in a seat for one or two hours (or more) at a stretch is a major concern health-wise for many people. Unfortunately, taking time to do any of this then puts the operator further under the 🞵🞵🞵 as now the bus is late. People love to remind the drivers of that at every stop. And I mentioned before that being spit at is generally not what one would call an ideal working condition. Try any bus leaving downtown on a Friday or Saturday night to see the best and worst of what happens in a day in the life...

I don't remember seeing too many Wal-Mart or Safeway employees getting punched and washrooms are only a few steps away, and I agree that part-time employees ARE a loophole-ish (and shady)way for some companies to avoid paying benefits, but one can hardly argue that the working conditions are the same.

And a living wage is the minimum amount required to cover BASIC expenses: food, rent, transportation, healthcare and so on. It does not include things like savings, vacations, and more. Again, one can argue that a family may be able to "get by" on that but only if they never want a nice vacation or to one day buy a house or send their kids to school.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by ShuttleMan

Based on your examples, it is clearly not something that is exclusive to Vancouver drivers.

...

I do hear the arguments and accept that there is a lot of concern over funding but I also submit that there are many, many nuances and moving parts to this whole situation. Sunday premium is a part for sure, but one among many. It's definitely not as simple as the media tends to make it out.

When I went looking for examples I was expecting to see maybe a 10% bonus or a flat dollar amount (eg $2.00/hr like with the nurses union) for Sunday along with the usual swing/night shift incentives of up to 5% or 1$/hr differential. It actually shocked me to realize that the CMBC and BC Transit are both 50% differentials for all jobs as well as the clerical staff. Everyone outside of BC has 25%(Calgary and Ottawa.)

But the moving parts argument isn't clean either. The starting wages for the BC bus drivers are right above the Living Wage level, while the bus drivers for Calgary and Ottawa actually start $3-$6/hr higher than here.

So if one wanted a starting place, downgrade the Sunday Premium and upgrade the hourly wage by a few points.

I wanted to try and find Montreal's, since Quebec is one of those places with weird government subsidies and the best I could find was this page:
http://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agreements/03/0375010s.shtml
Bus and Metro drivers: $24.13-29.68
(page 163 of 0375010c.pdf, note entirely in french)

40.09 Prime du dlmanche et de deuxieme equlpe
.01 L'employe qui travaille le dimanche recoit, sous reserve de Ia
clause 40.1 0, une prime equivalant a vingt-cinq pour cent
(25%) de son taux de salaire regulier pour toutes les heures
travaillees

So the Sunday 25% bonus is here too.

Found TTC's eventually on the same site:
http://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agreements/03/0377012a.pdf

Section 7. Sunday Premium
Uniformed employees shall be paid one and one-quarter times the
basic rate for Sunday work up to eight hours. Time worked in excess
of eight hours platform time shall be paid at the rate of one and onehalf
times the basic rate.

25% here too.

Transit Operator $25.53-$33.32 after 12 months


So the BC contacts still are the odd-man-out.


I wonder about US transit unions.

Seattle's was actually pretty quick to find.
http://atu587.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Metro-contract-bus.pdf
Transit Operator $30.71 (Top end)
No Sunday Premium mentioned
http://atu587.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Metro-Contract-Rail.pdf
Rail Operator $30.71 (Top end)
Also no Sunday Premium

Neither mention a starting wage.

Trimet (Portland)
http://www.atu757.org/contracts/trimetcba2016.pdf
Transit Operators: $15.63 to $28.39
LRV Operators: $22.02 to $29.40
(Top pay rate reached after 3 years for both)
No Sunday Premium either.