Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Like Kisai said, it's because Bob Mackin picks apart provincial projects looking for threads to pull on, and more than that, pretty much has a personal ax to grind with Peter Fassbender. Even in the interview audio clip for the radio, Mackin brings up BC Place, which was another direct feud with Peter Fassbender over non-disclosure issues.

I"ll admit Bob Mackin is picking at the government, but that's what we expect from the press.

The non-answers, email triple-deletes, and lack of FOI from this government is disgusting and the press is the one that needs to call them on it. There's no excuse.

If this was an ongoing contract negotiation, say so.

You guys bending over backwards to defend this stuff is sad.

[officedweller]

Yes, the Evergreen Line is no longer a separate "line".

Evergreen "Line" plays to politics.

Evergreen "Extension" plays to practical reality to reduce confusion among passengers
(i.e. voiceover suddenly changes from Millennium Line to Evergreen Line and confused [tourist?] passengers think - I'm on the wrong train)

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I"ll admit Bob Mackin is picking at the government, but that's what we expect from the press.

The non-answers, email triple-deletes, and lack of FOI from this government is disgusting and the press is the one that needs to call them on it. There's no excuse.

If this was an ongoing contract negotiation, say so.

You guys bending over backwards to defend this stuff is sad.

I'm not defending what happened, I'm coming up with an alternative and much more plausible reason for why Fassbender answered a specific question a specific way, instead of just accusing him and the Liberals of incompetence.

Seriously though, what should he have said? There are pretty much 2 other options:

1. "I don't know". The simplest answer. Which is true, there is no way of knowing at this point how much it would cost. There are a lot of things to be discussed and negotiated, and there is no way to know what an arbitrator or judge would decide. You hope, and believe, that you owe them nothing, but that is not how it always works out. It's possible, even under a fixed price contract that maybe the other party gets a couple million, and that's somewhat normal, but you have no idea at this point.
Problem: If you say "I don't know" you are admiting that maybe you DO owe something and that is what the press (specifically this reporter) will run with. It won't be balanced, just "Govmt potentially on hook for losses".

2. A range. You could say 0 up to the cost overruns. Then the press can focus on that max figure. And run headlines about "Taxpayers could be out millions". The "could" is the operative word, but the damage is readers get incensed at seeing taxpayers out millions. The other problem is everyone fear mongers the top of the range: "We could be out $100 million!", but if the result is anything more than the lowest figure in the end, headlines read: "Why wasn't it zero!!!????"

The other thing with the damages is they are most likely covered by the actual budget of the project. There is usually a contingency fund. It's better at the end of the day to run an unexpected surplus than a deficit. So you plan ahead for problems.

So while the damage might be in the millions, it's not a shortfall that needs more debt than we were planning on, or cuts to some other service. But that is not how headlines will read.

So you answer the project is on budget.

[officedweller]

I would actually say "within budget" rather than "on budget".
The word "on" implies a precise figure, whereas the word "within" implies a variable figure in a range.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yes, the Evergreen Line is no longer a separate "line".

Evergreen "Line" plays to politics.

Evergreen "Extension" plays to practical reality to reduce confusion among passengers
(i.e. voiceover suddenly changes from Millennium Line to Evergreen Line and confused [tourist?] passengers think - I'm on the wrong train)

Excuse me for being Politically Incorrect yet again, but "Evergreen Line" is so ... corny. If the line goes from Coquitlam to UBC, why couldn't it be the Central Line, or something?
It's the backbone (or will be) of the skytrain system.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Excuse me for being Politically Incorrect yet again, but "Evergreen Line" is so ... corny. If the line goes from Coquitlam to UBC, why couldn't it be the Central Line, or something?
It's the backbone (or will be) of the skytrain system.

I'd rather it be Millennium Line (with the part east of Lougheed be the Evergreen Extension) than Central Line. Central Line is too unoriginal.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Excuse me for being Politically Incorrect yet again, but "Evergreen Line" is so ... corny. If the line goes from Coquitlam to UBC, why couldn't it be the Central Line, or something?
It's the backbone (or will be) of the skytrain system.

You're not being politically incorrect, just annoying. For starters, it isn't built to UBC so worrying about the name is the least of a mountain of concerns. On top of that it isn't called the Evergreen line the entire way.

But,

We name lines because we like to express creativity and tradition around these parts.

Everything has names. From streets to apartment blocks to neighborhoods to boats to transit lines. Even some of the Skytrain cars themselves have names. Translink could get away with calling the Seabuses Seabus 1, 2, 3, and 4, not many would notice. But they have names because that is proper.

Dewdney Trail, was a road built in 1861 through Southern BC. It wasn't South Road, or road 3. Even today most of it is highway 3, but it is better known as the Crowsnest. Most highways in BC have names, even if they aren't official, that most locals use rather than the numbers.

It is English tradition. To this day many homes in rural areas of the UK have names. You don't send a letter to 1234 3rd street, you send it to Somethingshire House. In BC, almost every apartment has a name, even my building way out in Surrey has name (it's not a formal address like the UK, but is usually a legal name for the strata corporation).

Central line sounds descriptive, but makes no sense. What is it in the center of? There is no line to the north. If a descriptive name is not 100% clear what it's describing, then you may as well be more artistic; it will become just as memorable.

We could could simply call the Expo line "blue" or 1. But it loses any kind of character and context without gaining anything. By calling it Expo, it reminds you of the importance that Expo 86 played for the region. By calling it Line 1 it means jack shit.

Evergreen reflects the fact that the line leads off into the northern mountains of Coquitlam, where there are plenty of evergreen trees. It hints at the fact the line stretches out to the boundaries of the city where civilization meets nature. There is also a certain subtext about how green the entire city is, in nature (year round temperate climate) and philosophy (striving to be the most environmentally green city, which transit helps accomplish).

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Excuse me for being Politically Incorrect yet again, but "Evergreen Line" is so ... corny. If the line goes from Coquitlam to UBC, why couldn't it be the Central Line, or something?
It's the backbone (or will be) of the skytrain system.

It was chosen from names suggested by the public.

Be glad it's not the "Trainy McTrainface Line".

[MIPS]

I nominate either the Campbell Line or the Clark line.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Be glad it's not the "Trainy McTrainface Line".

Sounds better than Evergreen Line.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I nominate either the Campbell Line or the Clark line.

Originally Posted by Jebby

Sounds better than Evergreen Line.

ok ok ok .... but "Evergreen Line" ..... how, er, ... uh, "original" (and urbane)

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I nominate either the Campbell Line or the Clark line.

They already passed on "Glen Clark Station"

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

ok ok ok .... but "Evergreen Line" ..... how, er, ... uh, "original" (and urbane)

Do you even know what urbane means?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Do you even know what urbane means?

Although it is an adjective usually referring to a person, it means "refined, polished, worldly ... sophisticated....." Although here we are talking about transit, the line names are attributed by individuals, and as such is a reflection of the people who assign the names, and by extension, the character of the city (which is made up of people, be they urbane or not).

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Although it is an adjective usually referring to a person, it means "refined, polished, worldly ... sophisticated....." Although here we are talking about transit, the line names are attributed by individuals, and as such is a reflection of the people who assign the names, and by extension, the character of the city (which is made up of people, be they urbane or not).

So are you being sarcastic? Like I don't know what the point of you is.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

So are you being sarcastic? Like I don't know what the point of you is.

No I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just hoping Vancouver sheds its still-present "woodsy-provincial" image. I don't think that's asking too much, especially given other changes in the city.

[jlousa]

WTF woodsy provincial BS are you rambling on about? While it's one thing to want to see Vancouver to continue to improve it's downright ridiculous to imply it's woodsy/provincial. It's a fricking Beta city by every metric and in very good company including cities much larger, and it's one of the most livable on the planet. If you're going to spout such nonsense have the courtesy to finish the sentence with in your opinion!

Here's a post by yourself...perhaps reading your own posts would be a good start.

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Yes, this can be verified on Wikipedia.
This ranking (Beta +) is the reworking of the categorization by Loughborough University, and comes through Wikipedia, which is pretty reliable.
I'm flabbrgasted to see Vancouver ahead of Seattle and Osaka.

another source:
http://www.diserio.com/gawcworldcities2010.jpg

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by jlousa

WTF woodsy provincial BS are you rambling on about? While it's one thing to want to see Vancouver to continue to improve it's downright ridiculous to imply it's woodsy/provincial. It's a fricking Beta city by every metric and in very good company including cities much larger, and it's one of the most livable on the planet. If you're going to spout such nonsense have the courtesy to finish the sentence with in your opinion!

Here's a post by yourself...perhaps reading your own posts would be a good start.

Apart from maybe Bogota, I would not put Vancouver in a category with any of those cities. Those cities have so much more in terms of arts, culture, entertainment, nightlife, and just sheer vibrancy that Vancouver sorely lacks.

I mean, putting Vancouver in the same category as Berlin, Montreal, Rome, and Prague is just absurd. Those cities offer so much more in terms of culture, arts, entertainment, nightlife, economic and political importance...not to mention a vibrancy that Vancouver sorely lacks.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

No I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just hoping Vancouver sheds its still-present "woodsy-provincial" image. I don't think that's asking too much, especially given other changes in the city.

You've totally lost me. Are you being sarcastic now?

Are you saying the name of a transit line is urbane or provincial?

Because we picked name that reflects local interests, geography, society and heritage is not something other people who don't live here should be looking down your nose on because we are not goosestepping in sync with self-centered, elitist, imperial, snobbish eccentricities of continental Europe.

Is the Mozart and Camembert line more to your liking?

If we picked a name that others see as provincial or urbane, who gives a shit? It's who we are. We picked it for us.

If it's not to your liking, fine, don't live here. Oh wait, you already don't. Fuck off with the #VancouverShaming.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

You've totally lost me. Are you being sarcastic now?

Are you saying the name of a transit line is urbane or provincial?

Because we picked name that reflects local interests, geography, society and heritage is not something other people who don't live here should be looking down your nose on because we are not goosestepping in sync with self-centered, elitist, imperial, snobbish eccentricities of continental Europe.

Is the Mozart and Camembert line more to your liking?

If we picked a name that others see as provincial or urbane, who gives a shit? It's who we are. We picked it for us.

If it's not to your liking, fine, don't live here. Oh wait, you already don't. Fuck off with the #VancouverShaming.

Hey man, Chill Out. Your face is turning purple and the veins in your neck are ready to explode. It's just a name, so why flip, if you disagree. I must have hit a raw nerve somewhere.
You're acting as defensive as a mother hyena.

As for the post from JLOUSA, I predicted that reply would come along the moment I pressed the "submit reply" button. Keep up the hate-on, JLOUSA.
It wouldn't be the same without it.

JEBBY is the only one who understands the situation, perhaps because he's lived and travelled abroad more than some others. Thanks, JEBBY

In any case, BCPhil, there's a raw wound somewhere. My remark started a real .... of defensiveness happening, a sign of truth, however small. Your reaction says it all.