BC Political Discussion - BC Election 2017 May 9th

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by whatnext

IMHO you're calling that wrong: the outrage is just beginning. And it will build as the problem spills over from Richmond and Vancouver. As owners cashing out in those cities bid up properties in South of the Fraser the voters will realize this isn't just a "West Side problem".

Of course the BC Fiberals won't want to upset the applecart for their real estate donors, which will make it all the more easier for the NDP to paint them as tools of the development industry. I realize this might come as a shock to posters on SSP, but developers and realtors are not seen by the public at large in a favourable light. All Horgan has to do is take a page out of Bernie Sanders book and paint Christy & Co as the establishment enriching themselves at everyone else's expense.

You're right that the NDP will be their own worst enemy and Horgan is not the ideal messenger, but they've been handed a strong issue with emotional resonance (what's more important than having a roof over your head?). Whether they can exploit it or not remains to be seen.

There's ways to squash outrage before it spills into the realm of a movement. It may take a few token measures or funding for affordable housing units to pacify the public. The BC Libs know how to play the game. IMO, if Horgan paints the BC Liberals as tools of the development industry- then they will help the Liberals win again.

You are forgetting how dependent BC is on development; not only that but resource extraction which the BC NDP seems to be adamantly against. Even several unions (including the one I am in) are withdrawing support for the NDP.

I'll be honest. I think the liberals are scum. We've seen endless cuts to our health care system. Our education system is a far cry from what it used to be and seniors/disabled have lost a significant number of benefits. Our transit system is lagging behind because our govt is refusing to make hard decisions. There's lots of ammo, but the BC NDP are so damn inept and fragmented that they cannot even decide which way they lean.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

There's ways to squash outrage before it spills into the realm of a movement. It may take a few token measures or funding for affordable housing units to pacify the public. The BC Libs know how to play the game. IMO, if Horgan paints the BC Liberals as tools of the development industry- then they will help the Liberals win again.

You are forgetting how dependent BC is on development; not only that but resource extraction which the BC NDP seems to be adamantly against. Even several unions (including the one I am in) are withdrawing support for the NDP.

I'll be honest. I think the liberals are scum. We've seen endless cuts to our health care system. Our education system is a far cry from what it used to be and seniors/disabled have lost a significant number of benefits. Our transit system is lagging behind because our govt is refusing to make hard decisions. There's lots of ammo, but the BC NDP are so damn inept and fragmented that they cannot even decide which way they lean.

Any sop to affordable housing is by nature aimed at the poor, whose vote the NDP already has sewn up. It does not help the middle class. The real estate development industry is not the same as the resource development industry.

[Bcasey25raptor]

I can't see the BC Liberals losing the next 2 or 3 elections, if not more.

BC isn't the progressive province everyone thinks it is. It's true that the coast is very progressive and centre left, but most of the province is more moderate to centre right.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I can't see the BC Liberals losing the next 2 or 3 elections, if not more.

BC isn't the progressive province everyone thinks it is. It's true that the coast is very progressive and centre left, but most of the province is more moderate to centre right.

Politics is fickle, and BC leads the pack in that area. 2-3 elections is waaaaay too far to predict. If an election were held today, the Liberals would win again. But things can change extremely quickly. Look at how Mulcair fell apart.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Politics is fickle, and BC leads the pack in that area. 2-3 elections is waaaaay too far to predict. If an election were held today, the Liberals would win again. But things can change extremely quickly. Look at how Mulcair fell apart.

Look at the voter percentages for the Liberals and NDP going back to 1996 and you'll notice that the percentages are almost always the same. I can't see this changing much.

I predict 2017 will have the following results

43% Liberal, seat total, 46
40% NDP, seat total 36
10% Green, seat total 4
7% other, seat total 1 independent.

[csbvan]

The Liberals have a perception problem. This won't help:

Christy Clark’s salary being topped up by donations to BC Liberal Party
Premier Christy Clark is paid tens of thousands of dollars each year by the BC Liberal Party – an income that is drawn from coffers infused by donor contributions and is in addition to the nearly $200,000 she earns annually as the head of government...

The revelation about Ms. Clark’s extra payments follows Globe reports that she has been appearing at intimate donor get-togethers at which well-heeled patrons pay large amounts of cash for a chance to get rare, private face time with the most powerful politician in the province

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...ons-to-bc-liberal-party/article29767196/

[WarrenC12]

Is this second-hand bribery or am I missing something here? How is this legal at all?

[csbvan]

I suppose that it is not illegal because she is technically able to be paid by the party for work done, even if that is not common practice. However, as the leader of the party who is conducting fundraisers with donors, to then go out and use some of those raised funds to pay yourself a salary...

It might not be illegal, but it smells pretty foul.

[Migrant_Coconut]

This goes without saying, but it looks like 2017'll boil down to whether people hate Christy more than they like what's left of the economy.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by csbvan

I suppose that it is not illegal because she is technically able to be paid by the party for work done, even if that is not common practice. However, as the leader of the party who is conducting fundraisers with donors, to then go out and use some of those raised funds to pay yourself a salary...

I agree. It's difficult for this to pass the sniff test.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is this second-hand bribery or am I missing something here? How is this legal at all?

It's probably one of those things that shouldn't be legal, but manages to just skirt around the letter of the law. It's definitely not common practise in Canada. But the optics aren't good, especially since they are using taxpayer money to pay Christy's lawyer. Why doesn't the BC Liberal party use their funds for that?

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is this second-hand bribery or am I missing something here? How is this legal at all?

Why would it be illegal for a private organization to pay one of its officials? All the money she is being pay comes from voluntary contributions and is voted on by party members.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Why would it be illegal for a private organization to pay one of its officials? All the money she is being pay comes from voluntary contributions and is voted on by party members.

Exactly, this isn't illegal. Just unethical.

While not illegal, this is the sort of stuff that started occurring in Italy in the 1980's...Why mention that country? Well...

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Why would it be illegal for a private organization to pay one of its officials? All the money she is being pay comes from voluntary contributions and is voted on by party members.

Clearly the problem that people have with this is that the money that she is being paid is donated to the party through private fundraising events- fundraising events that are currently drawing fire because they are giving people who can afford it access to the Premier of the province. So she is giving access to raise funds from private donors, and then some of that private donor money is being paid directly to her. It would not be a problem if she wasn't the most powerful politician in the province, and was simply the member of a private organization. Once you assume a role as a public official however, you are supposed to avoid any sort of fiscal arrangement with third parties that might give the impression of a conflict of interest.

It seems ludicrous that anyone, no matter how partisan, would not find this a suspect practice.

[CanSpice]

It's especially egregious given 86% of poll respondants say they're in favour of banning corporate and union donations. Despite this, Christy Clark says they're here to stay because there are "spending limits on election campaigns", but that's not the point. The point is instead of corporations directly giving Christy Clark money, they instead give it to the BC Liberal Party who then shuffle it directly to her. It's highly unethical and is another striking reason why corporate and union donations need to be banned in BC.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by csbvan

Clearly the problem that people have with this is that the money that she is being paid is donated to the party through private fundraising events- fundraising events that are currently drawing fire because they are giving people who can afford it access to the Premier of the province. So she is giving access to raise funds from private donors, and then some of that private donor money is being paid directly to her. It would not be a problem if she wasn't the most powerful politician in the province, and was simply the member of a private organization. Once you assume a role as a public official however, you are supposed to avoid any sort of fiscal arrangement with third parties that might give the impression of a conflict of interest.

It seems ludicrous that anyone, no matter how partisan, would not find this a suspect practice.

Yep. This is exactly why Christy & Co will get their own chance to "Feel the Bern" next year. Total tools of the wealthy.

[Stingray2004]

Was just listening to Keith Baldrey on the 5 pm Global BC newscast.

Apparently, the BC Libs have paid a leader's stipend going back to 1993 - 23 years ago. And each and every year, said leader's stipend is disclosed in their required annual disclosure statements filed each and every year. All public knowledge.

Not only that, but also apparently a BC NDP MLA brought this exact matter up years ago but never went anywhere.

Obviously, looks like political silly season has begun in the lead-up to the 2017 BC election.

PS. The last time something akin to this came up was back in 2010, when it was disclosed that then BC NDP party prez Moe Sihota was taking an annual stipend (between $60,000 and $100,000) paid directly by some union orgs. Yep, the same Moe Sihota that organized BC NDP fundraising events for both unions and corporations leading up to the 2013 BC election.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...-unions-labour-boss-says/article1215277/

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

It's highly unethical and is another striking reason why corporate and union donations need to be banned in BC.

I have reviewed the recent annual financial disclosure statements filed by the BC Libs, BC NDP, and BC Greens with Elections BC.

And closely scrutinized the corporate donations for each - know many of the players therein.

So guess what happens when corporate donations have previously been banned elsewhere? The same company principals/officers then donate the same amounts as "individuals". Doesn't change anything.

As a matter of fact, I was surprised that many "individuals" made large donations to the BC Libs in the last calendar year ... when they simply could have donated using their corporate concerns. Same funds from same related source - just a different bank account.

Hell, the AB NDP gov't has banned both union and corporate donations. So what has happened? AB NDP premier Notley has held $pricey fundraising events with the officers/principals of corporations who donate as "individuals".

At the end of the day... it's just a shell game.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Was just listening to Keith Baldrey on the 5 pm Global BC newscast.

Apparently, the BC Libs have paid a leader's stipend going back to 1993 - 23 years ago. And each and every year, said leader's stipend is disclosed in their required annual disclosure statements filed each and every year. All public knowledge.

Not only that, but also apparently a BC NDP MLA brought this exact matter up years ago but never went anywhere.

Obviously, looks like political silly season has begun in the lead-up to the 2017 BC election.

PS. The last time something akin to this came up was back in 2010, when it was disclosed that then BC NDP party prez Moe Sihota was taking an annual stipend (between $60,000 and $100,000) paid directly by some union orgs. Yep, the same Moe Sihota that organized BC NDP fundraising events for both unions and corporations leading up to the 2013 BC election.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...-unions-labour-boss-says/article1215277/

Ugh. Nothing worse than when someone particularly partisan labels a problematic news story with the most overwrought cliche in all of politics: "silly season".

Anyways, the problem is the fact that Christy Clark is elected premier. Party president being paid by the party is less problematic because that person is not an elected official with a veto on policy decisions. It isn't a small issue, it hopefully won't be treated as a small issue either. At least the Globe still employs sceptical journalists:

Ms. Clark and her party see no problem with the Premier attending dinners where only the rich get access, dinners where attendees can bend Ms. Clark’s ear about any issue on their mind, and then the Premier getting paid out of the pool of funds generated by these very donor events. The Premier does not appear to see the direct benefit she is receiving as a result of her attendance at these exclusive, cash-for-access fundraisers.

Increasingly, the BC Liberals are an ethical outlier when it comes to this sort of stuff. The majority of provinces have banned or are in the process of banning union and corporate donations. Ontario was the latest, a move incited by outrage over the same type of private fundraisers that Ms. Clark is headlining. In Ontario, Premier Kathleen Wynne said she wouldn’t attend them any more and vowed to take big money out of politics.

Not B.C.

.....

When it was discovered that Quebec Liberal leader Jean Charest was receiving a similar annual payout from his party years ago it was a scandal. The practice ended immediately.

.....

What Ms. Clark fails to understand is that this is serious. There is a matter of grave public interest here. The Premier, the head of government, is selling access through party fundraising events. That is without dispute. And she is benefiting from the proceeds that access generates. It is a clear conflict. And yet, she and her party treat it like a big joke.

.....

One other thing to consider about all this: The people whose donations fund Ms. Clark’s Liberal Party salary get a tax receipt. In other words, taxpayers are subsidizing the $50,000 income that the Premier’s party gives her on top of the $200,000 citizens are already paying her as the head of government.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...-bc-liberals-is-no-joke/article29780527/

I am no partisan when it comes to BC politics. Federally I generally only vote Liberal, I would say that I am probably a partisan in that regard. But in this province I have voted for both parties, I like each equally little. However, this iteration of the BC Liberals is impossible to support in my opinion. They are now plagued with scandal. That last paragraph in Gary Mason's article will resonate. The gleeful neglect of the housing crisis will drive people mad. The triple deleting of e-mails is not suspicious, it is clearly indicative of an attempt to hide information that the government does not want to be public- despite the public's right to that information. The firing of the health workers was putrid and led to a man's suicide. If you still blindly support this type of cynical government due to some partisan purity, then I believe that says a lot about one's moral compass.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by csbvan

Ugh. Nothing worse than when someone particularly partisan labels a problematic news story with the most overwrought cliche in all of politics: "silly season".

Anyways, the problem is the fact that Christy Clark is elected premier. Party president being paid by the party is less problematic because that person is not an elected official with a veto on policy decisions. It isn't a small issue, it hopefully won't be treated as a small issue either.

I am no partisan when it comes to BC politics. Federally I generally only vote Liberal, I would say that I am probably a partisan in that regard. But in this province I have voted for both parties, I like each equally little.

However, this iteration of the BC Liberals is impossible to support in my opinion. They are now plagued with scandal. That last paragraph in Gary Mason's article will resonate. The gleeful neglect of the housing crisis will drive people mad. The triple deleting of e-mails is not suspicious, it is clearly indicative of an attempt to hide information that the government does not want to be public- despite the public's right to that information. The firing of the health workers was putrid and led to a man's suicide. If you still blindly support this type of cynical government due to some partisan purity, then I believe that says a lot about one's moral compass.

Oh brother. Cry me a river. That is the most partisan BC NDP rhetoric that I have read in this thread yet. Same spiel all over the internet by well-known BC NDP partisans. They are called the "Holier Than Thou Crowd"... until they get caught at the proverbial cookie jar.

If you are really concerned about your "moral compass" ... then ya obviously ain't gonna vote BC NDP either. Your only bet is to vote for Andrew Weaver and the BC Greens and I suspect that Weaver will make some major inroads during/after the 2017 election leaders' debate.

Now let's look at some similar fact evidence. Saskatchewan premier Brad Wall is also paid an annual leader's stipend of $37,000 by the Saskatchewan Party who also attends fundraising events for the SK Party:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchew...sed-wall-top-up-salary-details-1.1072177

Ya know what? SK premier Brad Wall and the SK Party won another landslide majority gov't just a few short weeks ago:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/elections/saskatchewan-votes

PS. I also voted Liberal in October, 2015.