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Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway
Out of curiosity, why are these costs so much higher in Winnipeg?
Your argument about costs is spot on...it all comes down to margins. Prettier stuff costs more and the bottom line matters to those making the decisions.
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The problem is that our simpler, or uglier stuff still costs more than Toronto or Vancouver's sexy stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire
Good question, I'd like to know too. We're on the same highways and rail lines as everywhere else, yet somehow we have construction costs supposedly rivalling the high arctic or other fly in locales?
If costs are that high, how are out of town builders not coming in to undercut all of the local players?
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Labour IS a component of the higher costs, as there isn't enough competition. However, there are too few glamourous, pricey projects short of the recent high-rises and the projects completed by our-dear-leader governments.
And of course PCL, EllisDon, and Stuart Olson get the big jobs as Generals and they do hire from out-of-province.
Hell, Glasshouse had pre-cast come just-in-time from the states to achieve lower costs, and swingstages and perhaps also cranes from Alberta.
We don't have enough big local subtrades, so pricing isn't competitive until an outsider comes in with a low bid anyway.
Smaller subtrades couldn't be bothered to grow larger than midsize if there isn't enough activity. Since there isn't enough competition at the mid-size level, they're getting rich staying (somewhat) small... so why bother?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomberjet
I think it's more to do with what you need to build, than the labour. From my understanding, foundations here cost more than elsewhere due to the shitty clay. Concrete is relatively expensive here. Seems there is a bit of a monopoly on the concrete here, or maybe lack of suppliers. Who can then charge what they want or you don't get. On the flip side, gravel is cheap here compared to say Saskatchewan. But you don't really use much gravel for a building.
But maybe I'm missing something more there.
For roads, we need more gravel to make up for the shitty clay again. So price is a bit higher than say Ontario, where you can build on rock and then use the rock you just blasted to make your gravel.
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There is a borderline monopoly on concrete, it seems. Not only the material, but as you mentioned, the soil demands much more from our foundations than elsewhere.
Unfortunately, soil, high material costs for concrete (one of the largest costs), high costs of speciality materials (because they're often shipped from elsewhere), higher thermal demand (both actual and arbitrary bullshit government money-grabs)... it adds up fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban recluse
I would need to see numbers, as I tend to believe this argument is made by developers to continue the incentives given by government. Conspiracy? Perhaps. Concrete, for instance, is pricey anywhere, as the cost of it has increased.
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If builders and large developers didn't need the gov assistance, we would have seen 2-3 high-rises go up annually since the TD tower. It's that bad.
TNS, Artis, could blindly toss a shiny project into Toronto and laugh all the way to the bank. Much like Mady/Fortress has. The problem is access to the land, which Toronto firms snap up ASAP. It's truly so much simpler... 30% lower cost, 30% (conservative estimate) HIGHER revenues...
They don't have some magic talent that Winnipeg's biggest don't, other than more experience doing exactly what Winnipeg's biggest probably COULD do if they got the chance in a major market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro
Thanks for the multi-post opinion/perspective. I enjoy someone who looks at the realities of builds in Man./Winnipeg., Your located in Quebec, if I may hazard a guess? Probably way off the mark..lol..
There are multi-storey builds in the area in question, concrete, not strictly wood, but as the market here dictates, they are more cost effective in the end for developers, which will have the final say whether a project moves forward in this or any given area. Demand/Cost/Price?, is the Village quite ready for it and are individuals ready to pay the price here..not quite yet. It'll come. There's cheaper ways of doing it, so they will be taken first. I would, if interested in investing in the market at present.
Either way, maybe we can take some of this discussion here, for those that really enjoy the economics of building in Winnipeg..
Heavy thread, for those that dare to enter...hahah.. 
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=211226 |
I will drown in that link haha! And thanks for the kind words, but I'm a local. I've simply spent a bit of time working in BC and Onterrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking
Construction costs are higher in Winnipeg for a few reasons. Biggest reason is soil conditions. We have to build much more foundation than most other places. Our climate also plays a factor. We have higher insulation requirements and building design standards. In Vancouver and Toronto a balcony is an extension of the floor. Here it is a series of gymnastics to reduce the heat transfer. This cascades throughout the construction. Every detail is more complex and labour intensive. We are also a small isolated market. There is not a lot of competition between contractors. There is also a shortage of skilled trades, driving up the cost of many components of construction. There is also a monopoly in the concrete industry. Our concrete is significantly higher cost here than in the rest of the country.
The challenge isn't only construction costs. Winnipeg also has the lowest rental and purchase rates for hotel, office and housing of the major cities. This is a development double whammy. Construction costs wouldn't be such a big issue if the payback was there in sales.
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All that.
I shouldn't have said a damn word and saved myself the 15 mins :rofl
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