South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by AForce

Before SFPR opened i would take Nordel to go over AFB, now i take SFPR. I wonder how many others are doing the exact same thing.

Im not disagreeing with you about people avoiding the tolls, I just dont believe that number is as high as you may believe. What about population increases contributing to higher traffic numbers? Surrey alone has increased 40,000+ since 2010. Im sure a small number of those people might be going over the bridge once in a while.

http://www.surrey.ca/business-economic-development/1418.aspx

Traffic over AFB has been on the rise since the day it opened, not just since the tolls kicked in. Note the GMT is pretty much at capacity and has been for a long time.

First thing, most of Surrey's growth over the past few years has been east of 144 Street. Perfect candidates to take the Port Mann bridge (the reason we upgraded it!). The Western most areas of growth in Surrey are south of 64 Ave. So if those people were taking the AFB, they would be approaching from the South on 91. There hasn't been significant growth in the northern areas that would result in the sudden surge of people taking the AFB from the SFPR in recent years.

The increase in traffic coming from the SFPR doesn't correspond to a decrease in traffic on Nordel. It still backs up past the pedestrian overpass every morning.

It does however correspond to lower numbers going over the PMB in the reverse peak direction, and during most of the day.

Also, it only takes a small amount of excess traffic to cripple a bridge.

When the tolls went in on the PMB, the Pattullo became insane. When I was at a workshop for the New Pattullo, the traffic engineers were fielding a lot of questions, and they bluntly said that because the Pattullo was at capacity already, the increase of drivers avoiding the tolls even if only a few thousand a day, pushed the bridge past the breaking point.

For example, not all increases are equal. If x cars get over the bridge in y minutes, 2x cars does not take 2y time. Under capacity, it will take less than 2y time, over capacity it could take far more than 2y time. They were saying that an increase of just a hundred cars an hour was making people take 20 minutes longer to get over the bridge.

So either those people aren't going to like the changing to the Pattullo and change to the AFB, or people who were taking the Pattullo are going to take the AFB. After a while traffic most days at the Pattullo did get better (better than the worst it got), but traffic at the AFB did get worse.

And all it takes is a few hundred extra cars taking the SFPR to the 91 Connector to the AFB for it to cause insane backups on that road because they merge down to one lane before traffic heading to Nordel can get around people waiting for the AFB. So that just makes the problem worse because there are cars not even going onto the AFB that are in the line for the AFB on the 91 connector.

So the OP basically asked why is traffic so bad to get to the AFB from the SFPR, and I think it is because of people skipping the toll on the PMB. Is every car skipping the toll, of course not. But there are enough of them to cause the congestion on that section of road.

So the OP was asking what can be done? Well, I think the problem would significantly decline if people who should go over the PMB did go over the PMB.

Other than that, the next best thing you could do is widen the Nordel overpass. Right now it is 3 lanes eastbound. And only 1 lane carries traffic from the SFPR. If traffic from the SFPR didn't have to merge down to one lane, then the leftmost lane could be for turns, and all the people caught in the traffic heading to Nordel wouldn't be stuck in that mess making it worse.

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Compounding this is that we essentially built an expressway to funnel WB/EB and local traffic into one small uncontrolled left-turn lane and then merge with more traffic to get onto the AFB.

You're bang on with this statement.

What were they thinking???? How did they not anticipate a large increase in traffic attempting to access the AFB from the SFPR? Did the traffic models just conveniently not model traffic impacts at the AFB / Nordel Interchange?
One small uncontrolled left turn lane, merging with heavy traffic coming in from the other direction.

Lets hope they look at the 91 Connector / Nordel corridor situation soon and come up with some upgrades that alleviate this situation a bit. Ideally a flyover from the 91 Connector to the AFB would be great, but its probably too much to ask for. They can't leave it like this with these kind of traffic jams happening.

Besides, how much longer do we have to wait for the Sunbury interchange before the Liberals feel they are no longer admitting they made a mistake in downgrading it to an intersection?

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Mininari

They can't leave it like this with these kind of traffic jams happening.

oh yes they can! there has been a traffic light on the "freeway" since 1985, and it doesnt look like it is going anywhere anytime soon. i think the government has proven just how long they can leave massive traffic jams unabated. 31 years and counting!

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

oh yes they can! there has been a traffic light on the "freeway" since 1985, and it doesnt look like it is going anywhere anytime soon. i think the government has proven just how long they can leave massive traffic jams unabated. 31 years and counting!

That traffic light is Delta's fault, they don't want an interchange there because they feel it'll increase traffic on 64th.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

That traffic light is Delta's fault, they don't want an interchange there because they feel it'll increase traffic on 64th.

It's Delta's fault because they want a full interchange while the Province just wants to build a flyover from SB 91 to EB 72nd and close the movement of WB 72nd to SB 91 (like the Nelson Interchange). And then on top of that they disagree on how much land to use and where.

Something similar would happen at Nordel. There isn't much land around the Nordel interchange to significantly change the movement from the SFPR. The space is pretty tight as right next to the interchange is the Burns Bog nature reserve. There is not much you can do to improve the movement from the SFPR that doesn't result in paving over the nature reserve.

[officedweller]

Related to SFPR:

http://vancouversun.com/business/commerc...and-delta-become-prized-industrial-areas

Commercial real estate: Richmond and Delta become prized industrial areas

Evan Duggan
Published on: April 26, 2016 | Last Updated: April 26, 2016 12:39 PM PDT


Development site for Beedie Industrial's Delta Link Business Park, looking south from the Fraser River. handout / PNG

...
Of the 18 industrial projects being developed or renovated in Richmond and Delta, four involve Beedie Group.

Among those is the new Delta Link Business Park, which takes up a large portion of the eastern half of Tilbury Island on the south arm of the Fraser River in Delta. The business park is expected by Beedie Group to eventually entail 1.5 million sq. ft. of industrial space.

The expansion into Delta by Beedie Industrial and others has been driven by demand for space by distribution and transport tenants, spurred by the effectiveness of the SFPR, said Todd Yuen, president of Beedie Industrial.

“The SFPR has been an absolute game changer,” Yuen told the Sun. “It really has cut down travel time by such a great extent.”

He said the SFPR has eased congestion in and out of industrial nodes along the Fraser River and opened up “better access to all areas of Metro Vancouver”.

Delta and Richmond are now pulling away owners and tenants from the extremely tight industrial markets in Vancouver and Burnaby, he said.

“Historically I couldn’t have dragged these individuals [from Vancouver] to look at Delta, but the SFPR and how easy it is to get out there, it’s made those areas viable for those types of businesses and their employees to take a look at this region and say ‘yes, this works for me now.’”

Beedie Industrial purchased the 34-hectare parcel for Delta Link in 2015. Yuen said they plan to design and construct projects of various sizes to suit specific needs on both a leasing and sales basis.

“Our first building will hopefully be under construction by fall of this year,” he said. “None of these deals are done yet, but we’re quite hopeful and very close on some.”
...

http://vancouversun.com/business/commerc...and-delta-become-prized-industrial-areas

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Related to SFPR:

http://vancouversun.com/business/commerc...and-delta-become-prized-industrial-areas



http://vancouversun.com/business/commerc...and-delta-become-prized-industrial-areas

I still cannot believe that industrial area is still expanding. I mean, I get how it makes sense economically, but it defies all logic when it comes to sustainable planning. You have local governments rezoning many parts of New West, Queensborough, Marpole/Fraserlands, North and South Richmond; getting rid of massive tracts of industrial lands, while indirectly forcing jobs away from any inhabitable areas and forcing people to drive since there's no viable transit alternative. I think we should have the foresight to protect intercity industrial lands.

[Spork]

Is it really so bad to pull industrial lands further south? Housing is cheaper, and so moving these jobs further south makes cheaper housing more accessible for these employees (or lessens their commute if they are already in that cheaper housing). Not everybody lives and works in Vancouver.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I still cannot believe that industrial area is still expanding. I mean, I get how it makes sense economically, but it defies all logic when it comes to sustainable planning. You have local governments rezoning many parts of New West, Queensborough, Marpole/Fraserlands, North and South Richmond; getting rid of massive tracts of industrial lands, while indirectly forcing jobs away from any inhabitable areas and forcing people to drive since there's no viable transit alternative. I think we should have the foresight to protect intercity industrial lands.

I think it depends on the land. I don't think there would be a lot of arguments in favor or returning heavy industry to the shores of False Creek. And once Skytrain was built and the BCER abandoned, the industrial lands around Joyce and Royal Oak have lost their previous beneficial position. Same with the industrial land in North Western Richmond along River Road

If the land is unique, like on a body of water, on a railway, or near a major highway, then efforts should be made to preserve it (and the market should aid in that from companies paying a premium for features that they require for their business). But the importance of barges and trains are declining and a lot of industrial land that used to be on the outskirts of town are now surrounded by density and congestion, so it makes sense to move some of it.

I agree that Port Royal was a huge mistake and should still be industrial, but that's pretty much it. If anything, the problem is that we didn't set aside more land for future industrial purposes decades ago, and now we need to find new areas (like Campbell Heights and Eastern Blundel Road).

But most of the businesses in South Western Vancouver (along Kent) don't need to be there as they don't make use of the River or Railway and would probably benefit from being East of highway 15.

[Mininari]

http://www.news1130.com/2016/04/29/interchanges-alex-fraser-bridge-congestion/


New interchanges considered in effort to ease Alex Fraser Bridge congestion
by MARTIN MACMAHON
Posted Apr 29, 2016 2:09 pm PDT

...
DELTA (NEWS 1130) – The province is hoping to build two new interchanges to get traffic flowing better around the Alex Fraser Bridge.

Nordel and Sunbury is where Transportation Minister Todd Stone wants these interchanges built.
...

Not clear if 91/72nd is in the mix, but if Delta is demanding full-movements, why not ask the feds for money to make that happen too?

[Infrequent Poster]

what the hell is going on? Between this and the talk of eight lanes over Lynn creek, the gmt project, its like the province is actually building what is needed and to an adequate scale.

I'm pleased they are talking/doing these things, but it feels a bit like the twilight zone.

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

what the hell is going on? Between this and the talk of eight lanes over Lynn creek, the gmt project, its like the province is actually building what is needed and to an adequate scale.

I'm pleased they are talking/doing these things, but it feels a bit like the twilight zone.

Well, there is an election coming next year...

Or maybe, just maybe, the ministry has finally decided to go after funding and invest in critical locations. Yeah, I'm a bit stunned by the C/D system proposal for Lynn / Dollarton, but I think it would really help a lot.

As for this Nordel / Sunbury combo, who knows, maybe it was wise to wait and see how traffic patterns actually unfolded before investing the big bucks on interchanges. I just hope it includes 91/72nd too.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

what the hell is going on? Between this and the talk of eight lanes over Lynn creek, the gmt project, its like the province is actually building what is needed and to an adequate scale.

I'm pleased they are talking/doing these things, but it feels a bit like the twilight zone.

Indeed! Our 2.5 million population was bound to catch up to us sometime.

Also, I agree with BCPhil, Port Royal is a big mistake. I remember exploring that area ten+ years ago, and was surprised to see the original little townhouse development. That whole end of the island is perfectly suited to industry. Water under the bridge now.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

what the hell is going on? Between this and the talk of eight lanes over Lynn creek, the gmt project, its like the province is actually building what is needed and to an adequate scale.

I'm pleased they are talking/doing these things, but it feels a bit like the twilight zone.

Where has 8 lanes over Lynn creek been mentioned?

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by SOSS

Where has 8 lanes over Lynn creek been mentioned?

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7420217&postcount=220

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

what the hell is going on? Between this and the talk of eight lanes over Lynn creek, the gmt project, its like the province is actually building what is needed and to an adequate scale.

Great if you're a motorist, but if you use transit then you're SOL.

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Great if you're a motorist, but if you use transit then you're SOL.

You are right. All these projects should be cancelled. God forbid they do anything at all in any form to improve things for motorists.

Getting the tunnel to flow freely will be a benefit to transit users, are they not having center median bus stops as a component of the gmt project as well?

[libtard]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Great if you're a motorist, but if you use transit then you're SOL.

How are you SOL? The lower mainland is literally blanketed in pubic transit. We have better public transit frequency than any other city in north america

[dharper]

..

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Great if you're a motorist, but if you use transit then you're SOL.

The entire north shore, including buses, barely moved all day due to one accident today. This hurts everyone, businesses, the economy, etc. Everyone needs adequate road infrastructure.