South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[logicbomb]

Jesus Christ, now I know what you guys are talking about. The line for the 91 connector heading to Nordel and AFB was completely backed up for kilometers this afternoon. You're looking at an extra 40+ min to enter the AFB. This area will be an absolute mess once the Patullo closes.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Jesus Christ, now I know what you guys are talking about. The line for the 91 connector heading to Nordel and AFB was completely backed up for kilometers this afternoon. You're looking at an extra 40+ min to enter the AFB. This area will be an absolute mess once the Patullo closes.

Rofl. I know. That happens a lot.

That's why when people gripe on these forums about "oh it isn't that bad" and "no we don't need bigger bridges spend everything on subways" I challenge them to get in their car and live a week out in south of fraser trying to cross the Fraser River during rush hour.

It 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 more often than not lol. You're either stuck in 40+ minutes of traffic jam not moving or you're paying $$$ a month in tolls. Heading North or South doesn't matter! Either way you're paying in time or money. Thus why the fact I work SoF means I live SoF so I could get away never crossing the river but not everyone has that luxury.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by CurtisVerbatim

there were two sets of table-top like bumps west of the 91 connector due to the appropriated land previously being pre-loaded in preparation for what I can only guess was going to be warehouses in the tilbury area. you can still see where it was pre-loaded as there are large mounds next to the road.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1476503,-122.9817615,64a,20y,90h,83.43t/data=!3m1!1e3
and
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1485726,-122.9676181,38a,20y,90h,83.56t/data=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1485711,-...UyNnG11ZCQi1hX-HUAEyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Yah that's where the bumps were I'd bottom out on. And actually since they 'fixed' them months ago they have now returned again. I have to stay in the left fast lane in my car or I hit.

So that will be a second major repair for that spot sooner than later. They have bump warning signs up there too.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Jesus Christ, now I know what you guys are talking about. The line for the 91 connector heading to Nordel and AFB was completely backed up for kilometers this afternoon. You're looking at an extra 40+ min to enter the AFB. This area will be an absolute mess once the Patullo closes.

Experienced that one once. Dreadful wait. Traffic in LA moves better than that. Something needs to be done asap

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Experienced that one once. Dreadful wait. Traffic in LA moves better than that. Something needs to be done asap

Yeah, you can pay the toll to take the PMB.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Yeah, you can pay the toll to take the PMB.

Come on now...The 91 connector and the resulting congestion is not a result of people bypassing the tolls. Our region was poorly designed and the infrastructure cannot deal with the increase in truck traffic. Compounding this is that we essentially built an expressway to funnel WB/EB and local traffic into one small uncontrolled left-turn lane and then merge with more traffic to get onto the AFB.

We made several intersections...may as well make one more off Nordel Way and the Hwy 91 on ramp.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Come on now...The 91 connector and the resulting congestion is not a result of people bypassing the tolls. Our region was poorly designed and the infrastructure cannot deal with the increase in truck traffic. Compounding this is that we essentially built an expressway to funnel WB/EB and local traffic into one small uncontrolled left-turn lane and then merge with more traffic to get onto the AFB.

We made several intersections...may as well make one more off Nordel Way and the Hwy 91 on ramp.

A light would not make much difference. After making the turn, traffic has to yield to traffic coming down Nordel. So typically there is only space for 5 or 6 vehicles (or less with Semi trailers), so only that many would be allowed through the light at one time, and then it would have to wait until it is clear. There are not that many cars coming down Nordel to the SFPR. There are plenty of gaps in traffic for left turns.

The problem is there is a lot more volume heading through there than there should be because people are using it to skip the tolls on the Port Mann. And the real issue is that the intersection of SFPR and the 91 connector should be an interchange. At the start of rush hour a lot of people come off River Road and a lot of traffic is coming off the AFB heading for the SFPR, so the light takes a long time to cycle through because there is a lot of traffic coming in every direction.

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

A light would not make much difference. After making the turn, traffic has to yield to traffic coming down Nordel. So typically there is only space for 5 or 6 vehicles (or less with Semi trailers), so only that many would be allowed through the light at one time, and then it would have to wait until it is clear. There are not that many cars coming down Nordel to the SFPR. There are plenty of gaps in traffic for left turns.

The problem is there is a lot more volume heading through there than there should be because people are using it to skip the tolls on the Port Mann. And the real issue is that the intersection of SFPR and the 91 connector should be an interchange. At the start of rush hour a lot of people come off River Road and a lot of traffic is coming off the AFB heading for the SFPR, so the light takes a long time to cycle through because there is a lot of traffic coming in every direction.

I drove through the 91 connector from 17, to the AFB on Saturday, mid afternoon, and the road was empty and I had no problem with traffic. I would second the motion that the connector is suffering from high volume attributable to some people avoiding the tolls. There should be a flyover onramp from the 17 to the AFB, adopting the current merge lane, and realigning the Nordel on ramp into flyover.

[AForce]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The problem is there is a lot more volume heading through there than there should be because people are using it to skip the tolls on the Port Mann.

This has always bothered me. I can see people taking pattullo bridge to skip the toll but AFB? I've even read some articles that say the traffic nightmare at the GMT is because of the toll skippers. Now my question is, where are all these people headed? Are people actually that dumb that they would drive that far around just to stick it to the man?

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by AForce

This has always bothered me. I can see people taking pattullo bridge to skip the toll but AFB? I've even read some articles that say the traffic nightmare at the GMT is because of the toll skippers. Now my question is, where are all these people headed? Are people actually that dumb that they would drive that far around just to stick it to the man?

So how am I, a Langley resident expected to get to YVR? It's via the Alex Fraser Bridge or the Tunnel. Not skipping tolls here.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by AForce

This has always bothered me. I can see people taking pattullo bridge to skip the toll but AFB? I've even read some articles that say the traffic nightmare at the GMT is because of the toll skippers. Now my question is, where are all these people headed? Are people actually that dumb that they would drive that far around just to stick it to the man?

Anywhere really. The AFB connects though the 91 (East-West connector) which can dump you onto Knight or Oak. IMO I can achieve a higher average speed on Knight, Oak or Granville than on 1st or Granview at rush hour (as each of the roads are 6 lanes vs the typical 4 lanes for the East-West roads). Skipping the toll at the Port Mann and taking the SFPR to the AFB should add on 20 minutes to get downtown, but most people drive on the SFPR at pretty much the same speed they would drive on the TCH (even though it is busy around the AFB, it has much less traffic on it).

Vs the Pattullo: New West can be heavily congested, and you need to drive through most of it to get back to the TCH, or drive through city streets (Canada Way or Kingsway) all the way downtown. At the best of times, hitting the Pattullo would only save you 5 minutes vs going all the way to the AFB, but on average taking the Pattullo would take longer for most destinations.

And in some people's minds, losing 20 minutes is less of a change than going from something free to $3. Going from 40 minutes to an hour is an increase of 50%; going from 0 to $3.15 is incalculable so going from the next smallest amount of money, 1 penny, it is a 31400% increase. That's not really what it is, but that is how some people's subconscious works: they now get an extra bill every month that wasn't there before (even if avoiding that bill costs more in gas and time, it is still more satisfying to the subconscious to not get it).

Especially in the reverse direction (which would be people heading north over the AFB, which is what we were talking about causing backups on the SFPR going to the AFB in the afternoon). The only spot of congestion would be around AFB, otherwise both routes would have similar to no congestion.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

So how am I, a Langley resident expected to get to YVR? It's via the Alex Fraser Bridge or the Tunnel. Not skipping tolls here.

You missed his point, he's talking about people who are intentionally skipping tolls and taking the Pattullo, AFB, or GMT, not the people who are just taking those crossings because that's the route they'd normally take (like to get from Langley to YVR).

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Yeah, you can pay the toll to take the PMB.

Traffic has been that bad since before the PMB opened. Heck has been pretty bad since before PMB construction even started. It's gotten worse yes, but it has been bad for a long time.

Claiming it is PMB related is just not accurate. Anyway how does taking the PMB help anyone going from South Delta to Queensborough, BCIT, or Metrotown or vice versa? Trucks traveling from Annacis to Tilbury? AFB is the most direct route. So the solution is to drive 50km extra? You're being far too simplistic.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

A light would not make much difference. After making the turn, traffic has to yield to traffic coming down Nordel. So typically there is only space for 5 or 6 vehicles (or less with Semi trailers), so only that many would be allowed through the light at one time, and then it would have to wait until it is clear. There are not that many cars coming down Nordel to the SFPR. There are plenty of gaps in traffic for left turns.

The problem is there is a lot more volume heading through there than there should be because people are using it to skip the tolls on the Port Mann. And the real issue is that the intersection of SFPR and the 91 connector should be an interchange. At the start of rush hour a lot of people come off River Road and a lot of traffic is coming off the AFB heading for the SFPR, so the light takes a long time to cycle through because there is a lot of traffic coming in every direction.

The real issue is a left turn lane crossing traffic with no light at the base of Nordel to get on the AFB, an AFB that can't handle the traffic anymore, people bypassing the toll, and there just being way more people crossing the bridge.

It isn't just bypassing the toll though. Just look at crossing statistics for the AFB and you'll see it has been a crawl well before the PMB even opened up.

Just a point:

Every Wednesday in April 2015 - ~123800 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2014 - ~119400 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2013 - ~120000 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2012 - ~117800 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2010 - ~116600 vehicles crossing

Nothing for April 2011 in the stats... but you can see the growth is fairly steady and in 2010 it was only 7200 vehicles per day off or roughly 6% lower than in 2015. That can be easily attributed to an increase in 5 years in population South of Fraser and industrial development and even if 50% of that was toll dodgers, that would be 3% of the increase in traffic which is quite frankly insignificant.

April 2012 and April 2010 btw no PMB open. Feel free to go back further but just for giggles:

2004 April, ~107,000 crossings. That's 12 years ago. So it is still a lot of vehicles crossing. New PMB wasn't even a dream in 2004.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/trafficdata/tradas/tradas.asp?loc=P-16-60NS

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by jhausner

The real issue is a left turn lane crossing traffic with no light at the base of Nordel to get on the AFB, an AFB that can't handle the traffic anymore, people bypassing the toll, and there just being way more people crossing the bridge.

It isn't just bypassing the toll though. Just look at crossing statistics for the AFB and you'll see it has been a crawl well before the PMB even opened up.

Just a point:

Every Wednesday in April 2015 - ~123800 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2014 - ~119400 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2013 - ~120000 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2012 - ~117800 vehicles crossing
Every Wednesday in April 2010 - ~116600 vehicles crossing

Nothing for April 2011 in the stats... but you can see the growth is fairly steady and in 2010 it was only 7200 vehicles per day off or roughly 6% lower than in 2015. That can be easily attributed to an increase in 5 years in population South of Fraser and industrial development and even if 50% of that was toll dodgers, that would be 3% of the increase in traffic which is quite frankly insignificant.

April 2012 and April 2010 btw no PMB open. Feel free to go back further but just for giggles:

2004 April, ~107,000 crossings. That's 12 years ago. So it is still a lot of vehicles crossing. New PMB wasn't even a dream in 2004.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/trafficdata/tradas/tradas.asp?loc=P-16-60NS

Does that make the afb the busiest bridge in the metro?

[Klazu]

Second Narrows Bridge might be a close contender. Both are 6 lanes but Seconds Narrows is congested more hours of a day (these days) and most of the time both ways. Alex Fraser Bridge is normally only busy in the direction of the rush.

[AForce]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

So how am I, a Langley resident expected to get to YVR? It's via the Alex Fraser Bridge or the Tunnel. Not skipping tolls here.

You aren't skipping any tolls, you are just driving the shortest fastest route. I also work at YVR and live near Gateway skytrain. For me the best way is to take Marine in the morning. Even at 545am the 91 connector starts to get backed up. Its actually faster to go the long way and take the tunnel than AFB.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Traffic has been that bad since before the PMB opened. Heck has been pretty bad since before PMB construction even started. It's gotten worse yes, but it has been bad for a long time.

Claiming it is PMB related is just not accurate. Anyway how does taking the PMB help anyone going from South Delta to Queensborough, BCIT, or Metrotown or vice versa? Trucks traveling from Annacis to Tilbury? AFB is the most direct route. So the solution is to drive 50km extra? You're being far too simplistic.

I'm not saying the AFB isn't busy or wasn't busy before. I'm saying that many cars coming off the SFPR and going onto the AFB are skipping the tolls. They are taking the long way around via the SFPR and then getting on the AFB. All you need is a few hundred cars doing that in the peak hour and that makes a line from the left turn to weigh station.

If those cars were instead taking the toll bridge to save them time, then the line from the SFPR to the AFB would be shorter for people who actually need to go that way.


Also, the years of the stats are a bit interesting. They are fairly flat in growth between 2010 and 2012, before the SFPR was opened and before the PMB was tolled. Then they jump 2000 cars in 2013, right after tolls take effect in December 2012. At that time the SFPR is only opened part way, so most dodgers are heading to the Pattullo, many not even via the SFPR but just heading down King George. Which would then cause people who normally take the Pattullo but can see similar results over the AFB to take the AFB.

April 2014 is right after the whole SFPR opens, so not really long enough for people to change their habits. And by 2015 enough time has passed for to many to get fed up with the Pattullo and start using the AFB instead (where you see another jump of 4000 cars).

I would wager a huge portion of that 4000 car increase last year is heading to the bridge from the SFPR.

[AForce]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Also, the years of the stats are a bit interesting. They are fairly flat in growth between 2010 and 2012, before the SFPR was opened and before the PMB was tolled. Then they jump 2000 cars in 2013, right after tolls take effect in December 2012. At that time the SFPR is only opened part way, so most dodgers are heading to the Pattullo, many not even via the SFPR but just heading down King George. Which would then cause people who normally take the Pattullo but can see similar results over the AFB to take the AFB.

April 2014 is right after the whole SFPR opens, so not really long enough for people to change their habits. And by 2015 enough time has passed for to many to get fed up with the Pattullo and start using the AFB instead (where you see another jump of 4000 cars).

I would wager a huge portion of that 4000 car increase last year is heading to the bridge from the SFPR.

Before SFPR opened i would take Nordel to go over AFB, now i take SFPR. I wonder how many others are doing the exact same thing.

Im not disagreeing with you about people avoiding the tolls, I just dont believe that number is as high as you may believe. What about population increases contributing to higher traffic numbers? Surrey alone has increased 40,000+ since 2010. Im sure a small number of those people might be going over the bridge once in a while.

http://www.surrey.ca/business-economic-development/1418.aspx

Traffic over AFB has been on the rise since the day it opened, not just since the tolls kicked in. Note the GMT is pretty much at capacity and has been for a long time.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

Does that make the afb the busiest bridge in the metro?

According to this post in 2014 the Second Narrows had 117854 average daily trips and the Alex Fraser had 107785. In September 2015 the Second Narrows had... uh, I don't know what MAWD or MADT are, but the Second Narrows was about 7-8% higher than the Alex Fraser.