DENVER | Main Development Thread #6 - Page 388

wong21fr · #**7741** Posted **Mar 31, 2016, 9:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcp

Yet again...lets put a park right by a park...hold the damn corner with a building ...

Who's building the building? RTD?

I'm sure that if someone comes along and want to buy the parcel right now that RTD wouldn't give two shits about what the placeholder use (car parking, park, urban garden, homeless camp, artillery battery to fire upon Highlands NIMBY's) was, but a patch of grass does seem to be the standard solution because it's cheap.

bunt_q · #**7742** Posted **Mar 31, 2016, 10:03 PM**

I'd think that'll be a real hard parcel to develop with anything other than government uses. There's a whole lot of homeless and other activity on that block that I would expect to dissuade your run of the mill office users from leasing there. I'd keep it empty for now, who knows, maybe it can serve as a streetcar network hub someday if we ever get our s*** together here.

corey · #**7743** Posted **Mar 31, 2016, 10:50 PM**

I agree that a lawn, even if temporary, is a terrible idea at the transit station. Why waste the water on a space that will look like crap from day one? I think until a building is constructed there it will be a haven for illicit activity no matter what. But I think a fenced xeriscape demonstration garden, community garden to serve Capitol Hill apartment dwellers, dog park, etc. might be good temporary uses. I am glad they are redoing this transit station though. The current station has gotten really rundown and is a terrible design in the first place.

corey · #**7744** Posted **Mar 31, 2016, 11:13 PM**

My Brother's Bar absolutely needs to be protected. It is the oldest continually operating bar in Denver. It was one of Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady's regular haunts. It is Denver's version of City Lights bookstore in SF's North Beach or the Gaslight Cafe in NYC's Greenwich Village.

bunt_q · #**7745** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 2:23 AM**

Their context is what gives them extra value. If anybody was actually buying them with future redevelopment value in mind (which I HIGHLY doubt) then they should've been smart and demo's one a decade ago. Intact historic commercial blocks are almost nonexistent in Denver today. I wouldn't support demo of a single one going forward. Enough are already gone - opportunity missed, too damn bad.

Also, I wonder how we can recoup artificial market value increases caused by policy choices. Restrict housing development by dumb planning policy - maybe everybody should be required to pay a percentage of their appreciation into the general fund. Same thing you're saying, only flipped.

bunt_q · #**7746** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 2:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcp

Can't tell if bunt being sarcastic......it's the corner of Broadway and Colfax....should absolutely be built out with mixed use, intensely, and the homeless issue will be drowned out by workers and residents...shit, why not a hotel? Granted ....there is a view plane here, but this use and succumbing to the homeless is a bad solution. Remember triangle park?

No sarcasm - I think we are going to need a streetcar end-of-line at some point. That's the logical place for it.

Nothing you're realistically going to put there is going to be enough to drown out the undesirables. If we are accepting that we'll never do a streetcar network and will need that land, cool, I'm all for developing it. I just think it is going to be incredibly hard to get developed (profitably).

corey · #**7747** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 9:38 AM**

As Bunt stated, a streetcar end of line is a great use for the east side of the Civic Center transit station. I don't think anything over 2 stories (if even that tall) should be built there because it will block the view of the Capitol from 16th St and the view down 16th from the Capitol dome.

CherryCreek · #**7748** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 2:09 PM**

New York Times sending Denver some love - talking about its booming economy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/01/busine...gion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0

EngiNerd · #**7749** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 3:37 PM**

Rockies posted this on their FB page this morning, things have changed a little bit downtown since 1993

(here's a Google Earth image for comparison's sake)

CherryCreek · #**7750** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 3:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Rockies posted this on their FB page this morning, things have changed a little bit downtown since 1993

(here's a Google Earth image for comparison's sake)

That pic captures nicely where the long term future development for Central Denver is:

Elitches and the Pepsi Center HAVE GOT TO GO!!

bunt_q · #**7751** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 4:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Elitches and the Pepsi Center HAVE GOT TO GO!!

Not sure I agree. I think we could use a couple decades of development pressure, after the Central Platte Valley/Union Station/Riverfront Park are built out, to fill in Arapahoe Square and the Golden Triangle, to name a few. If you go and open up another 100 acres of developable land under single ownership today, you might leave us with another 2-3 decades of surface parking lots interspersed through the actual city that we'd otherwise have a real opportunity to dispose of in our lifetimes. I am perfectly happy keeping the Pepsi Center and Elitches as a land bank for the next generation.

I do like the aerial of the old Air Liquide chemical facility, across from the Mile High light rail station. I managed that demo when I was an intern at RTD way back in the 2000-01 timeframe. Fun project. Also, the new aerial really shows off the absurdity of having the Mile High station and the Auraria West station less than 1000 feet apart from one another.

enjo13 · #**7752** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 4:11 PM**

Why in the world would we root for removing two major cultural attractions that make Downtown so attractive in the first place?

TheNightfly · #**7753** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 4:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Not sure I agree. I think we could use a couple decades of development pressure, after the Central Platte Valley/Union Station/Riverfront Park are built out, to fill in Arapahoe Square and the Golden Triangle, to name a few. If you go and open up another 100 acres of developable land under single ownership today, you might leave us with another 2-3 decades of surface parking lots interspersed through the actual city that we'd otherwise have a real opportunity to dispose of in our lifetimes. I am perfectly happy keeping the Pepsi Center and Elitches as a land bank for the next generation.

I do like the aerial of the old Air Liquide chemical facility, across from the Mile High light rail station. I managed that demo when I was an intern at RTD way back in the 2000-01 timeframe. Fun project. Also, the new aerial really shows off the absurdity of having the Mile High station and the Auraria West station less than 1000 feet apart from one another.

I partially agree. Pepsi Center should stay though. I think it would be cool if they turned that entire lot into a big green open space and reserve it for a potential 120 story observation tower. It could have an entire parking area beneath it like Boston Commons park.

I can't figure out why Elitch's is still there. Elitches is holding downtown back. Shit, it's holding itself back. It could be a better theme park if it had more open space to work with. Put that park near DIA.

Stonemans_rowJ · #**7754** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 5:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumos

Oh, I would not save them for their aesthete; just for Mona's excellent breakfasts.

Love the ambiance there and the staff is nice, but the food is definitely subpar in my opinion.

CherryCreek · #**7755** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 5:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNightfly

I partially agree. Pepsi Center should stay though. I think it would be cool if they turned that entire lot into a big green open space and reserve it for a potential 120 story observation tower. It could have an entire parking area beneath it like Boston Commons park.

I can't figure out why Elitch's is still there. Elitches is holding downtown back. Shit, it's holding itself back. It could be a better theme park if it had more open space to work with. Put that park near DIA.

I don't disagree in terms of priority, I take it from Kronke's purchase of Elitches, he is thinking the same.

Time for Elitches to move to the burbs. Develop Elitches over the next 5-8 years. When that's done, Pepsi Center (now 16 years old) will be ready for a fresh look. You could ultimately keep the next generation sports center downtown (even on the existing land), but it makes no sense for a City as dense as Denver is becoming to have that much close in space dedicated to surface parking lots.

Perhaps the Pepsi Center replacement is built well to the South of the existing location (perhaps where the tents in the satellite view are located) , parking lot space is halved, and space closest to the urban core is developed.

navyweaxguy · #**7756** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 6:36 PM**

Elitches is one of the only unique things about downtown. Besides, what would go in there? More 5-7 story stick apartments. Blah! Downtown isn't family friendly as it is and now you want to make it even less so.

CherryCreek · #**7757** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 6:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by navyweaxguy

Elitches is one of the only unique things about downtown. Besides, what would go in there? More 5-7 story stick apartments. Blah! Downtown isn't family friendly as it is and now you want to make it even less so.

Well, I doubt Kroenke bought the land to run an amusement park indefinitely. It's days are numbered.

corey · #**7758** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 7:13 PM**

Moving Elitches is ab

wong21fr · #**7759** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 7:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Well, I doubt Kroenke bought the land to run an amusement park indefinitely. It's days are numbered.

He's also in it for the long play- I see Elitch's as more of a long-term development opportunity for Kroenke and he might look at the area as an entertainment district with amusement park, stadium, bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. rather than an extension of downtown.

Considering the number of ventures that Kroenke is involved with (LA, that shithole Victory Crossing) I figure that a redevelopment of the Pepsi Center and Elitch Gardens is at least a decade away.

corey · #**7760** Posted **Apr 1, 2016, 7:27 PM**

Moving Elitches is about the least critical redevelopment project for downtown, IMO. I think concentrating on building up Arapahoe Square, Golden Triangle, and even the CBD are more important. I also feel most cities cater to adults and do not do enough to provide amenities and attractions for families and young people. The Pepsi Center was a bad design from day one. You can tell it was designed in the mindset of a Walmart developer, Kroenke, the way it is surrounded by parking lots. Charlotte, Sacramento, and even NYC's Madison Square Gardens (the demolition of Penn Station not-withstanding) are much more successful designs for a truly urban arena. LA's Staple Center is okay, but it feels too generic and artificial in the same way as the entertainment districts of Kansas City and Phoenix. It would be awesome if they included the Nuggets arena as part of a multi-use redevelopment of the Federal Reserve block!