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  #11021  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 5:19 AM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
I would have agreed with you up until say the last 3 years or so, many of the Allentown people I know work in NY now and no longer in Philly. Their families have moved into the area from NYC and with random meetings through business and what not I have found more and more connections to NYC and the pendulum seems to be swinging. Using Allentown for an example, is an extra 30 miles that big of a deal when you can be in one of the epicenters of the world? This is where I go back to saying there needs to be some thought to CSAs and not just what things look like on a map.


Good points!
I'd say the only logical reason why the Allentown people work in NYC as opposed to Phila has to do with one thing: MONEY!!! Especially considering that NYC is the financial and economic capital of the country, if not the world!!! The travel time from NYC to Allentown is 90 minutes, while from Phila to Allentown, it's 60 minutes, yet more people are commuting from Allentown in NYC. Why so??? Because for one, since Allentown is now a Latino majority city (mostly Puerto Rican and Dominican), most of the Latinos came mainly from NY and NJ, as well as other groups who migrate here for lower taxes and quality of life, another factor why the CSA puts the Lehigh Valley with NYC rather than with Phila.

And finally, I feel that the outdated leadership of the PA legislature hasn't kept up with the PA citizens and the trends that are happening within the state. We're practically the only state in the Northeast (another exception is maybe Maine), in which both the Senate and the House are both Republican controlled!!! The rest of the states from NH, MA, CT, NY, NJ, and MD have at least some form of Democrat control somewhere in the legislative branch. NY Dems have control in the House while the GOP controls the Senate. In PA, theres really no such thing as a third party or independents in this state, it's either Republican or Democrat!!! Gov Wolf hasn't really changes anything except raise some taxes nor has he shook up anything in the Capitol like Rendell did when he became governor.

Imagine if all we had to drink as far as soda is concerned is Coke or Pepsi, but no 7Up nor no Dr Pepper!!! That's how it is in PA!!! Also, I indirectly blame SEPTA for removing intercity rail service in the 80's to the 90's and operating a glorified bus service to outlying communities such as Pottstown, West Chester, and Newtown, while other agencies such as the MTA, NJ Transit, and the MBTA were operating
even at a loss of profit!!!

Out of all the cities on the East Coast, Philadelphia and PA seems like the least innovative, the least progressive, and the least visionary place here right now. Just look at how we treated Garrett Miller and his proposal to give Phila not only the tallest building in America, but also attract a major corporation in Phila. Not the Main Line, not King of Prussia, and not Fort Washington, THE CITY AND COUNTY OF PHILADELPHIA!!! By god, we could've had TD Bank, Black Rock, GSK and hell even Verizon, or better yet General Electric (especially considering that NBC is now owned by Comcast, of all companies), but because of the greed and jealousy of a few people (looking at Comcast, Liberty Property Trust for not building the Comcast Center into a 1000+ ft tower and later building a substandard tower with a cheating spire, Vince Fumo, former mayor michael nutter, the residents of Kennedy House, other NIMBYs and Negadelphians in the city, and some of clueless forumers on SSP), we don't have the skyline we should be having as we speak.

The Cira Centre South is the best project we have right now, especially the FMC Tower!!!! The Schuylkill Yards project is another great proposal and one in which I believe can host the first 3000+' supertall at the former site of the Bulletin Building, although the Cira 3 kinda displaces that proposal by one building and there's no intercity bus station that's been proposed thus far, but otherwise, it's a very visionary concept. The Market8 proposal, while I disagree with putting a casino on Market East and agree with placing 100K sq ft in order to attract a major department store (hello Macy's), is a very good start at revitalizing that currently struggling retail strip. I also believe in creating another smaller CDP at 5th and Market, and expanding that area with skyscrapers since people are so enthralled in expanding our skyline from University City to the Delaware Waterfront, including a 1000+ ft supertall, at least one (the Independence Tower???) nearby Old City!!!

I'm still not in accordance with the CITC, and it has more to do with just the copycat design (NBC Tower in Chicago and the amenities of the former ACC) and the industrial-inspired design from LPT, but the fact that the site was supposed to be for the ACC and LPT and Comcast waited and manipulated to city and state gov't to not allow 18th and Arch to be developed, even though the ACC was fully approved by the city and the state, as well as former state senator and current convict Vince Fumo siding with the Kennedy House NIMBYs and trying his best to mothball what should've been a testament to the city's greatness, tells me that even though we were competitive in the latter part of last decade, right now, in this decade, we still have our Negadelphia inferiority complex and this time it has absolutely nothing to do with the 5th largest city in America not does it have anything to with being sandwiched between the NYC and DC area, great cities in their own right, but this time it seems like this inferiority complex stems from the fact that when it comes to grand projects like the ACC, we can't get things done and have to either settle for second best or worse, mediocrity!!!
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  #11022  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 11:48 AM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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Philly to Allentown is 90 minutes. Maybe even closer to 2 hours if traffic is heavy.
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  #11023  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 11:56 AM
Plokoon11 Plokoon11 is offline
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Cheating spire? I guess the chyrisler and emprie state cheat too. But some good points and some ehh.
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  #11024  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 11:58 AM
skyscraper skyscraper is offline
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
By god, we could've had TD Bank, Black Rock, GSK and hell even Verizon, or better yet General Electric (especially considering that NBC is now owned by Comcast, of all companies), but because of the greed and jealousy of a few people (looking at Comcast, Liberty Property Trust for not building the Comcast Center into a 1000+ ft tower and later building a substandard tower with a cheating spire, Vince Fumo, former mayor michael nutter, the residents of Kennedy House, other NIMBYs and Negadelphians in the city, and some of clueless forumers on SSP), we don't have the skyline we should be having as we speak.
I am not following what you are alleging. Somehow, by Comcast building a "substandard" building, less than 1000' to the roof,we scared away TD Bank and the others you mentioned? Are you saying that they would have been tenants in a larger building? If so, wouldn't their "greed" have caused them to build that building? I get it, you prefer the ACC's design, and that's fine. But I think you're overstating what happened. It was a spec building that did not have an anchor tenant. and not because Comcast forced them out.
And if the spire is "cheating" on the height of the building, then so is the Chrysler Building's, and the Empire State Building's.

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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
The Schuylkill Yards project is another great proposal and one in which I believe can host the first 3000+' supertall at the former site of the Bulletin Building,
You're high.

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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
I'm still not in accordance with the CITC, and it has more to do with just the copycat design (NBC Tower in Chicago and the amenities of the former ACC) and the industrial-inspired design from
So any building with a setback is a copycat design. Got it.

Last edited by skyscraper; Mar 29, 2016 at 12:23 PM.
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  #11025  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 11:59 AM
skyscraper skyscraper is offline
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Originally Posted by Plokoon11 View Post
Cheating spire? I guess the chyrisler and emprie state cheat too. But some good points and some ehh.
ah, you just beat me to that observation.
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  #11026  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Just look at how we treated Garrett Miller and his proposal to give Phila not only the tallest building in America, ..................but because of the greed and jealousy of a few people (looking at Comcast, Liberty Property Trust for not building the Comcast Center into a 1000+ ft tower and later building a substandard tower with a cheating spire, Vince Fumo, former mayor michael nutter, the residents of Kennedy House, other NIMBYs and Negadelphians in the city, and some of clueless forumers on SSP), we don't have the skyline we should be having as we speak.
ACC didn’t get built because they didn’t have a tenant, not because Mike Nutter hates tall buildings or because we were jerks to Garrett Miller.
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  #11027  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 12:48 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Interestingly enough, someone was on the radio yesterday talking about Chicago and the latest population estimates because chicago is slowly losing population based on the data. They discussed some of the potential reasons and much of it was similar to what Philadelphia faces (although we are still growing- slowly). Major reasons were the general migration to the South, lack of immigrants to replace middle class people who are leaving, and a big out migration of middle class blacks. So while the appeal to college educated professionals remains strong, it's outweighed by the slow foreign immigration rate and the departure of middle aged, middle class people looking for better climates and cheaper housing.
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  #11028  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 12:55 PM
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[QUOTE=wanderer34;7386838]

The Schuylkill Yards project is another great proposal and one in which I believe can host the first 3000+' supertall at the former site of the Bulletin Building,



Have you been in my liquor cabinet ??
NO one in this city seems to have the foresight , or balls to build as much as a dog house at 8th.&Market , and your
imagination sees a 3000 ' super-tall at the old Bulletin site ......

PS ; Hammer , how much longer before we see THREAD 10 ..... or is that as far off as the dog house
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  #11029  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 1:06 PM
Milksteak Milksteak is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
Interestingly enough, someone was on the radio yesterday talking about Chicago and the latest population estimates because chicago is slowly losing population based on the data. They discussed some of the potential reasons and much of it was similar to what Philadelphia faces (although we are still growing- slowly). Major reasons were the general migration to the South, lack of immigrants to replace middle class people who are leaving, and a big out migration of middle class blacks. So while the appeal to college educated professionals remains strong, it's outweighed by the slow foreign immigration rate and the departure of middle aged, middle class people looking for better climates and cheaper housing.
Philly is still doing ok with immigration for those without families or those who do not have a lot of money....the diversity in this city is great. The suburbs seem to be cleaning house for immigrants who can afford it...lower Bucks is seeing a lot of Chinese and Russian investment (some of the Russians coming from the Northeast trying to escape the city tax and school district). Philly also has the influx of hipsters which I'd imagine a lot of cities are benefiting from, as well as the empty nesters. The region as a whole is growing slowly, but if Philly wants to experience a significant boom, they NEED to fix the schools (no breaking news there) or they are going to lose the 20's crowd that want settle down and have kids soon.
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  #11030  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 1:11 PM
br323206 br323206 is offline
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Maybe for Fortune 500 companies (though I think that is less true in this day of activist funds trying to squeeze out every last ounce of shareholder value). It is more than a marginal issue for smaller businesses.
If anything, it is even LESS of a factor for small businesses. Most small businesses can't afford to pick up operations or need to be where they are. Think about most retail, fitness centers, banks, restaurants, etc. They are where their customers are. My gym isn't going to move to Bucks County because its customers are in Philadelphia.

You might say, ok but I'm talking about high-wage, job producing small companies. It doesn't matter. A friend of mine owns his own television production company. He hates the additional city taxes, but he needs to be in the city. His clients are in the city. Other production companies are in the city. Infrastructure is in the city. It's the only place that provides the synergies necessary to make his business work. He'd love to pay less taxes, but there are bigger issues at play.

And the data agree with my anecdotal examples. Few businesses are basing their locational decisions solely on taxes. For the vast majority it is issue number 20 or 30 on their list.
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  #11031  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 1:11 PM
Milksteak Milksteak is offline
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You're high.
You're drunk!!

Sorry, too much Arrested Development lately I couldn't help it.
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  #11032  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Out of all the cities on the East Coast, Philadelphia and PA seems like the least innovative, the least progressive, and the least visionary place here right now.
Actually, I would say that Baltimore is in way worse shape than we are.

Also, least visionary? We have towers rising along the Schuylkill, Schuylkill Yards and the 30th Street Station District Plan proposed, proposals for the two MASSIVE lots on Broad and Washington, the revitalization of Market East, and towers rising north of Vine Street. On a smaller scale, we have development occurring in Kensington, Point Breeze, and further into West Philadelphia along Market-Walnut Streets. Simply put, developers are developing properties in areas that probably would never have been considered 10 years ago. That's visionary to me.
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  #11033  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 2:36 PM
Flyers2001 Flyers2001 is offline
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Philly is still doing ok with immigration for those without families or those who do not have a lot of money....the diversity in this city is great. The suburbs seem to be cleaning house for immigrants who can afford it...lower Bucks is seeing a lot of Chinese and Russian investment (some of the Russians coming from the Northeast trying to escape the city tax and school district). Philly also has the influx of hipsters which I'd imagine a lot of cities are benefiting from, as well as the empty nesters. The region as a whole is growing slowly, but if Philly wants to experience a significant boom, they NEED to fix the schools (no breaking news there) or they are going to lose the 20's crowd that want settle down and have kids soon.
Their not trying to escape the taxes by leaving the northeast. They are trying to escape the crime that seems to be occurring much more frequently in many Northeast Neighborhoods than it was 10 years ago.
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  #11034  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 3:25 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Their not trying to escape the taxes by leaving the northeast. They are trying to escape the crime that seems to be occurring much more frequently in many Northeast Neighborhoods than it was 10 years ago.
seems and reality are 2 different things. I don't think there is a single crime category in Philly that hasn't declined significantly over the past decade. Homicides are the only measure that gets covered even though its a poor barometer of overall crime rates. Violent crime, car thefts, robberies, etc. are all down significantly.
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  #11035  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 3:28 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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If anything, it is even LESS of a factor for small businesses. Most small businesses can't afford to pick up operations or need to be where they are. Think about most retail, fitness centers, banks, restaurants, etc. They are where their customers are. My gym isn't going to move to Bucks County because its customers are in Philadelphia.

You might say, ok but I'm talking about high-wage, job producing small companies. It doesn't matter. A friend of mine owns his own television production company. He hates the additional city taxes, but he needs to be in the city. His clients are in the city. Other production companies are in the city. Infrastructure is in the city. It's the only place that provides the synergies necessary to make his business work. He'd love to pay less taxes, but there are bigger issues at play.

And the data agree with my anecdotal examples. Few businesses are basing their locational decisions solely on taxes. For the vast majority it is issue number 20 or 30 on their list.
I am a small business owner (and know many others), and I disagree. The Philadelphia taxes and overall business climate are a big problem and big driver out to the suburbs. Of course, it is and must be balanced against various business advantages to being in the city that exist for many (if not most) types of business. Also, I'm not sure why you are talking about relocation rather than choosing a location as between the city and burbs to initially set up shop (many companies initially start in the suburbs and finally move into the city once they've become big and profitable enough that they determine business advantages are great enough to outweigh the higher cost of operating here). Admittedly, this is just one of many factors. But I believe that people that don't acknowledge the problems with taxes and the Philly business climate simply aren't talking to enough business owners in the city and suburbs and what drives their decisions. Of course, there's also been no systematic study or survey that I'm aware of. Not really worth having an argument, though.
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  #11036  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 3:35 PM
tsarstruck tsarstruck is offline
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Originally Posted by Milksteak View Post
Philly is still doing ok with immigration for those without families or those who do not have a lot of money....the diversity in this city is great. The suburbs seem to be cleaning house for immigrants who can afford it...lower Bucks is seeing a lot of Chinese and Russian investment (some of the Russians coming from the Northeast trying to escape the city tax and school district). Philly also has the influx of hipsters which I'd imagine a lot of cities are benefiting from, as well as the empty nesters. The region as a whole is growing slowly, but if Philly wants to experience a significant boom, they NEED to fix the schools (no breaking news there) or they are going to lose the 20's crowd that want settle down and have kids soon.
One thing that no one is talking about much is how unfavorable demographics are for all US cities: the generation behind the millenials is smaller AND the empty nester boomer generation is going to start petering out. Fixing the schools would soften the blow, but Philly will have to increase the percentage of younger people choosing it over the suburbs just to keep up.
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  #11037  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 4:11 PM
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Actually the school issue isn't that big. They really only need to a fix ONE school or two that parents can guaranteed get their children in to by living in the neighborhood. Then once that school is filled fix the next one over..
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  #11038  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 4:26 PM
ScreamShatter ScreamShatter is offline
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One thing that no one is talking about much is how unfavorable demographics are for all US cities: the generation behind the millenials is smaller AND the empty nester boomer generation is going to start petering out. Fixing the schools would soften the blow, but Philly will have to increase the percentage of younger people choosing it over the suburbs just to keep up.
All true points.

What Philly needs is an extremely pro-business liberal or socially-liberal conservative to become mayor. If we could modify our tax rates, it could create a jobs boom in Philly that attract more individuals and companies. We also need energy prices to go back to up pressure on the suburban living model again.
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  #11039  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tsarstruck View Post
One thing that no one is talking about much is how unfavorable demographics are for all US cities: the generation behind the millenials is smaller AND the empty nester boomer generation is going to start petering out. Fixing the schools would soften the blow, but Philly will have to increase the percentage of younger people choosing it over the suburbs just to keep up.
I think Philly is already doing great in terms of claiming marketshare of post college age adults. What many claim is happening or will happen is that people currently in their 20s will move when their kids hit school age. I don't know how much evidence there is that this is happening. CCD produced a document showing that many families were leaving the city even as population increases in and around CC- but they didn't really establish where the outflow was most concentrated. Many of the barren neighborhoods of the city have been bleeding people for decades- nothing new there. No jobs, no economic growth, no hope, etc. Then you have people in NE and NW philly who often can afford to buy a house in the suburbs if they want their kids to go to school there- but this has probably been going on forever. I don't think it's new nor do I think it's getting worse. If anything the proliferation of charter schools has likely slowed the bleeding of middle class parents from the city's relatively stable outlying neighborhoods.
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  #11040  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2016, 5:23 PM
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All true points.

What Philly needs is an extremely pro-business liberal or socially-liberal conservative to become mayor. If we could modify our tax rates, it could create a jobs boom in Philly that attract more individuals and companies. We also need energy prices to go back to up pressure on the suburban living model again.
There is no magic bullet on taxes or business attraction. The momentum is in the positive direction but this is a long battle, not something that can be fixed with a miracle working mayor. The change in state law they are pushing for seems significant and hopefully that will accelerate the job growth if it becomes reality.

I think gas prices are a small part of why many of tiring of suburban living. The need to drive everywhere, the necessity of car ownership, aging housing stock, high property taxes, the lawn and yard care that many young people could care less about, etc are all factors.
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