Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ The difference is that the renderings you posted were all designed to impress, and all of them were downgraded as the projects ran into fiscal reality.

And some of them were not under consideration at all and are about as useful to the debate as the domed stadium for Hamilton (a non starter).

Isn't the first graphic (above post) the second incarnation of the CanadInns proposal (after the toilet seat below)



I believe the third was from the dude who tried to hold up OSEG and that was his proposal and I can't recall the genesis of the fourth Pan Am Games stadium and whether it had a legitimate shot or not. I don't remember the Regina (second) one at all.

You know, they should take that first Winnipeg design (above) give it a red motif instead of green/blue and assume it's a horseshoe instead of a toilet seat and it would be perfect for Calgary.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Brizzy82

Holy sh*t that Edmonton arena is moving fast.

Really jealous of that. MTS Centre is nice enough but I'd kill to have that thing dropped in on Portage Ave

Edmonton's lucky that they had a mayor at the time who fought very hard to get them a new arena. Calgary will get nothing as long as pro sports-hating Nenshi and his gang are in power. And there's no frickin' way the Flames ownership is going to pay 100% of the cost of this complex. One of the owners has changed his place of residence to London to avoid paying the ridiculously high taxes Notley has slapped on rich people in AB. My prediction is Calgary won't see a new proposal until at least 2019 and God only knows when we'll actually see new facilities. 2030?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Even this is infinitely better than what's currently proposed

What stadium is that?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

What stadium is that?

Informal proposal for a Saskatoon CFL franchise

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by elly63

New franchise for Saskatoon?

My issue with the Calgary design is the interior. I don't have a problem with the exterior or the clear dome. I believe they have some plan for ventilation so that it isn't hot like a greenhouse.

My issue is that it looks like a fieldhouse with telescoping seats and none at one end which doesn't look all that great.

Aside from us biased stadium hoes, what does the average Calgarian think of the design? I haven't seen much about that aside from the location, cost and cleanup. What do they think about the design?

Ken King and Co seem oblivious if people are saying they don't like it. (the design) They do say on their website that several designs are in the mix.

I'd say the overwhelming majority of Calgarians hate the design and most aren't too thrilled with the location or proposed funding arrangement. I don't think too many people believe this is the real proposal but so far Ken King and company have done a horrible job selling this project.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

My prediction is Calgary won't see a new proposal until at least 2019 and God only knows when we'll actually see new facilities. 2030?

I've found these things often take about eight years from first proposal to finished project.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by elly63

Informal proposal for a Saskatoon CFL franchise

Nice looking stadium but they should go for something covered. Regina should cover there's as well.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by elly63

I've found these things often take about eight years from first proposal to finished project.

Calgary has a horrible track record when it comes to building sports facilities. Edmonton makes us look like we're some backwater city of about 100K. I wouldn't be surprised if takes eight years just to get the funding in place let alone build the facilities.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Calgary has a horrible track record when it comes to building sports facilities.

Well, they did well enough to host an Olympics, can't be all bad.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ The difference is that the renderings you posted were all designed to impress, and all of them were downgraded as the projects ran into fiscal reality. Some more than others... Winnipeg and Sask ended up with great stadiums, Ottawa's is not bad, Hamilton's is, well, meh.

But Calgary would be starting from a point where even the initial stadium rendering mean to wow and seduce people just flat out sucks. That's a scary thought, because where do you go from there?

Fair assessment but I think you're missing my point. The people behind Calgary next are pushing this off as a community use building, Not a stadium. That's why you see a track that stands out like a sore thumb, bench seating, basketball nets, ect, ect. They aren't trying to sell a stadium so try and dress it up as a field house with seating for 30k.

My comparison to the last 4 CFL venues were to show you that none are even close to what you actually get. Look at the clay renderings for example. 2 decks on both sides. This is smart tactics imo

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by elly63

Well, they did well enough to host an Olympics, can't be all bad.

But the city didn't build those facilities. I believe they funded some of the last Saddledome upgrade which to some of them should be good enough for ever.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Fair assessment but I think you're missing my point. The people behind Calgary next are pushing this off as a community use building, Not a stadium. That's why you see a track that stands out like a sore thumb, bench seating, basketball nets, ect, ect. They aren't trying to sell a stadium so try and dress it up as a field house with seating for 30k.

My comparison to the last 4 CFL venues were to show you that none are even close to what you actually get. Look at the clay renderings for example. 2 decks on both sides. This is smart tactics imo

They're selling the stadium as a field house because the city said they would fund a field house ($200 million but of course they don't have the money). Essentially the Flames ownership group wants the city to build them a free stadium. At least that's how it comes across to me. The entire proposal needs to be trashed and redone from scratch. Other than having a covered stadium I don't see one good thing about it.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

They're selling the stadium as a field house because the city said they would fund a field house ($200 million but of course they don't have the money). Essentially the Flames ownership group wants the city to build them a free stadium. At least that's how it comes across to me. The entire proposal needs to be trashed and redone from scratch. Other than having a covered stadium I don't see one good thing about it.

Putting aside funding, I don't have a problem with the above. They're eventually going to build a fieldhouse anyway and the private group that was fronting the idea said that 200 million was what it was gonna cost. So if the Stamps group want to piggyback that I think it is a good idea. They will save $$$ over separate facilities if there are some shared resources. The problem is that many people don't like how the design looks. Personally I think the concept can come to fruition to satisfy most but this first stab at it ain't the one.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Fair assessment but I think you're missing my point. The people behind Calgary next are pushing this off as a community use building, Not a stadium. That's why you see a track that stands out like a sore thumb, bench seating, basketball nets, ect, ect. They aren't trying to sell a stadium so try and dress it up as a field house with seating for 30k.

My comparison to the last 4 CFL venues were to show you that none are even close to what you actually get. Look at the clay renderings for example. 2 decks on both sides. This is smart tactics imo

Smart tactics? pretty sure nobody wants this built in its current form.

smart tactics would have been a bait and switch to get it built. throw some fake pie in the sky rendering and say hey we're gunna build this beauty and get public support for it. then when the money is guaranteed and construction starts, cut costs and scale back the design.

I don't think leading on the province for multiple years about this great design they have cooked up and constantly pushing back an announcement then releasing renders of an uninspired cold fieldhouse is smart.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by elly63

Putting aside funding, I don't have a problem with the above. They're eventually going to build a fieldhouse anyway and the private group that was fronting the idea said that 200 million was what it was gonna cost. So if the Stamps group want to piggyback that I think it is a good idea. They will save $$$ over separate facilities if there are some shared resources. The problem is that many people don't like how the design looks. Personally I think the concept can come to fruition to satisfy most but this first stab at it ain't the one.

Actually it was the city that said the field house would cost $200 million as there's been plans to build one for awhile but no money (that's very debatable but another story) to do so. What people are wondering is if the Flames group plans on spending more than that to incorporate football or if they want to downgrade other aspects to include it. I can't see building a decent stadium for $200 million let alone also including a field house. Doing this on the cheap would be a disaster which is why I'm against the plan.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Actually it was the city that said the field house would cost $200 million as there's been plans to build one for awhile but no money (that's very debatable but another story) to do so. What people are wondering is if the Flames group plans on spending more than that to incorporate football or if they want to downgrade other aspects to include it. I can't see building a decent stadium for $200 million let alone also including a field house. Doing this on the cheap would be a disaster which is why I'm against the plan.

Do we know that is what the stadium/fieldhouse will cost or do we only know that the whole project is 890 million and they want 200 million from the city towards the s/h.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by elly63

Do we know that is what the stadium/fieldhouse will cost or do we only know that the whole project is 890 million and they want 200 million from the city towards the s/h.

We've known for awhile (long before CalgaryNEXT) that the city has plans to build a field house which they say will cost $200 million. We have no idea what the individual facility costs are for CalgaryNEXT as they haven't released any specific details. Yes, the Flames want the $200 million the city plans on spending to build a field house and in return claim they'll build a field house/stadium combo which the city can use. Given what Edmonton's arena is costing I can't see the Flames spending much more than $200m on the stadium/field house combo if the entire project is supposed to cost just $890m. I pretty sure the city's field house plan did not include 30K seats so something fishy is going on. Either the field house/stadium is going to suck big time or the arena is going to be barebones. The real money is in the arena so I'd say it's safe to say that the stadium is going to suffer. Even if Calgary got a MSL team it still wouldn't be worth it to the Flames to spend another $300m+ on the stadium to do it right. At least that's the way I see it.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by elly63

Isn't the first graphic (above post) the second incarnation of the CanadInns proposal (after the toilet seat below)

ha ha...i drew those....should have built it.

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by trueviking

ha ha...i drew those....should have built it.

Did you account for more room in the concourse?

In spite of the issues, I do prefer the IGF location at U of M over this, it was proposed for Headingley right?

[VIce]

Originally Posted by elly63

Putting aside funding, I don't have a problem with the above. They're eventually going to build a fieldhouse anyway and the private group that was fronting the idea said that 200 million was what it was gonna cost. So if the Stamps group want to piggyback that I think it is a good idea. They will save $$$ over separate facilities if there are some shared resources. The problem is that many people don't like how the design looks. Personally I think the concept can come to fruition to satisfy most but this first stab at it ain't the one.

Even if the fieldhouse were to cost the city $200m, and that they'd get the same product if they were to invest $200m into this project, that's not an incentive to do anything. Its still a bunch of millionaires (and a billionaire) asking the city to adjust their plans and become a partner instead of sole stakeholder in a project for the honor of helping these guys grow their entertainment business.

The pitch should be how much money the city could save, or what new facilities the public would have by joining this project as a partner instead of going it alone. That is an actual incentive. Losing nothing is not an incentive, and CS&E should have been able to anticipate the very appropriate hostility they've gotten for this.