PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by VikingDutchman

Yes we need to work out our tax system (I'm not necessarily sure we need lower taxes, but we definitely need smarter taxes).

I agree - the issue isn't as much that the city taxes too much (though it does) as that the taxes are idiotically structured and the money is wasted in obscene ways. The bottom line is that taxpayers are not getting what they pay for because the politicians in charge don't really represent the people who are paying most of the taxes.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

The bottom line is that taxpayers are not getting what they pay for because the politicians in charge don't really represent the people who are paying most of the taxes.

And there you have it in a nutshell.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by VikingDutchman

I've always said that Philly ought to chart a different course for success among US cities. Yes we need to work out our tax system (I'm not necessarily sure we need lower taxes, but we definitely need smarter taxes).

I would also love it if Philly could find a way to leverage its historical assets, large core city population (compared to say, Boston or San Francisco), and relatively affordable housing to make a new model. Metropolitan administrative governance (I hate the title, but how awesome would it be to get a "Lord Mayor", as they have in London and some former British colonies), pro-growth property development zoning and policies, a land tax, an aggressive play to lever our existing assets to move away from autocentricity, etc...

The problem with cities like Boston and San Francisco is that they've fallen so far down the unaffordability trap it's difficult to see how they could ever climb out of it. I say this as someone who lives now in Boston (well, Somerville). And that just gums up the whole framework of a city. Boston is growing now, but it's going to hit a wall in the near future because it's wealthy grump residents are going to prevent any progress. If you think working class folks in Philly neighborhoods are resistant to development, you haven't seen nothing yet. Just look at NY, where while Bloomberg trying to upzone mixed-income Brooklyn neighborhoods got all the press while the successful campaigns of wealthy folks in parts of Manhattan to actually downzone their highly in demand neighborhoods actually saw the totally zoned 'capacity' as it were of the city decline overall.

Philly could and should be an opportunity to adopt cutting edge policies that would never get past the wealthy stick-in-the-muds of NY, Boston, SF, etc... But for that to happen we'd need more visionary leadership in City Hall, a council that put the city before itself, un-gerrymandered state legislative districts, and probably a change in Washington as well.

I know, ridiculous. But a man can dream!

I agree with all of this. I don't necessarily think our taxes need to be lower but there needs to be a different mix that's relevant to how business and jobs work today.

Ditto for the zoning.

I'm actually hopeful about city leadership. I was all for Kenney (though he's making me a little nervous)...but there are some new faces on Council that have already changed the tenor (Domb, Gym, Henon, Green, etc). Add that to some bona fide good eggs like Maria Quinonez Sanchez and good government could be coming soon.

Blackwell has to die eventually. Kenyatta will lose his seat eventually due to demographic changes in his district...or he'll just hear the music. The biggest problem actually remains Clarke. He's so regressive in so many ways...I just hope Kenney's good relationship with him gets some progressive legislation passed.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Outta here

Ok , I agree with that , so then whats all the hoopla about building skyscrapers and
supertalls ( i.e. U City ) if there is no career positions to fill them .

What? Lol. I didn't say there was no demand... I said Philadelphia was slow growth compared to other cities. There is still demand here, but if we were faster growing, the Schuylkill yards would be built out in 7 years instead of 20.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

3. The inversion of dwelling preference in the region. We've always had a strong downtown...but let's face it...for a very long time, the animosity of many suburbanites to Philadelphia kept them from considering Philadelphia as a place to call home. Thankfully, that's fading, and fast...but it is causing a sort of inversion in the residential market where Philadelphia is catching up to other regions with strong downtown cores in terms of the proportion of building permits in town versus out of town. I think our residential market is growing (and the associated towers in the skyline) disproportionately to the economic growth because of this correction, if you will.

I've said this a lot in response to those who are constantly asking "Who's buying all these new condos/townhomes/apartments that are quite expensive, but building like crazy. There's no way there's demand for all this."

People fail to understand that what we are seeing now is literally just a 70 year market correction in terms of units/demand relative to population size.

Originally Posted by VikingDutchman

Philly could and should be an opportunity to adopt cutting edge policies that would never get past the wealthy stick-in-the-muds of NY, Boston, SF, etc... But for that to happen we'd need more visionary leadership in City Hall, a council that put the city before itself, un-gerrymandered state legislative districts, and probably a change in Washington as well.

I know, ridiculous. But a man can dream!

Jefferson said the people have a right to alter or abolish when government is no longer working for them, but for itself - so we're long overdue for a revolution in this city.

Even something as simple as term limits for Council Members so they can't create Fiefdoms would force these folks to look at their time leading the city more as a 4-8 year public service, and not as a career (which they must protect at all costs). This would force the system to constantly be bringing in new talent and new people with different ideas - it also is much harder for the political power players to control that many moving parts. It's easy to manipulate when 1 new council seat opens up every 8 years...

[PHL10]

I agree with a lot of the points made. We have serious structural problems that need to be addressed. But I just wanted to comment on our built environment. As a lifelong Philadelphian (minus 10 years in the middle), I feel like there is something at play here that isn’t present in other places. I think we feel that we are overly safe sometimes but when you look at the product we are building, it’s actually daring.

We have a super tall and a 700 foot OFFICE tower under construction. Sure office demand is weak but despite that, we have these crazy buildings going up. The Drexel/Brandywine proposal includes another super tall. Remember the mayor of Boston years ago was trying to find a way to entice the construction of a super tall in the City? That’s hasn’t been necessary here. Why? I’m not sure but outside of SF, what peer cities are building as bold? Not Dallas, not Houston, not Boston, not Atlanta (I might be missing someone).

As much as we may lament many aspects of how our City is being run, there is some intangible boldness to this place that belies how many of us view Philadelphia.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by PHL10

As much as we may lament many aspects of how our City is being run, there is some intangible boldness to this place that belies how many of us view Philadelphia.

Great points!

[iheartphilly]

Free market enterprise and capitalism. There are plenty of business folks that know how to make money irregardless of government hurdles. The mindset is that if I can make a dollar, I can make a million. Also, borrowing money continues to be cheap so the risk to returns are mitigated.

[1487]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I agree with all of this. I don't necessarily think our taxes need to be lower but there needs to be a different mix that's relevant to how business and jobs work today.

Ditto for the zoning.

I'm actually hopeful about city leadership. I was all for Kenney (though he's making me a little nervous)...but there are some new faces on Council that have already changed the tenor (Domb, Gym, Henon, Green, etc). Add that to some bona fide good eggs like Maria Quinonez Sanchez and good government could be coming soon.

Blackwell has to die eventually. Kenyatta will lose his seat eventually due to demographic changes in his district...or he'll just hear the music. The biggest problem actually remains Clarke. He's so regressive in so many ways...I just hope Kenney's good relationship with him gets some progressive legislation passed.

you people need to keep things in perspective. There is a lot of room for improvement but construction is booming, population is increasing and office vacancy is down. When you consider what's actually going on it's hard to sit there and say "the city is going downhill solely because we have incompetent politicians in City Hall that are incapable of doing anything business friendly". Not sure that is what the evidence supports. And saying things like Phoenix is growing faster than Philly is proof that Philly isn't doing anything right doesn't hold water.

[1487]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I agree with a lot of the points made. We have serious structural problems that need to be addressed. But I just wanted to comment on our built environment. As a lifelong Philadelphian (minus 10 years in the middle), I feel like there is something at play here that isn’t present in other places. I think we feel that we are overly safe sometimes but when you look at the product we are building, it’s actually daring.

We have a super tall and a 700 foot OFFICE tower under construction. Sure office demand is weak but despite that, we have these crazy buildings going up. The Drexel/Brandywine proposal includes another super tall. Remember the mayor of Boston years ago was trying to find a way to entice the construction of a super tall in the City? That’s hasn’t been necessary here. Why? I’m not sure but outside of SF, what peer cities are building as bold? Not Dallas, not Houston, not Boston, not Atlanta (I might be missing someone).

As much as we may lament many aspects of how our City is being run, there is some intangible boldness to this place that belies how many of us view Philadelphia.

I just saw a link to a study showing residential building permits were at 3rd highest level on record in modern era. Around 4k units approved in 2015.

[Human Scale]

And so it begins.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/greaterphiladelphiaplanners/permalink/1033980456624255/

Or

https://phila.legistar.com/LegislationDe...030BDC961A62&Options=ID%7CText%7C&Search

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Human Scale

And so it begins.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/greaterphiladelphiaplanners/permalink/1033980456624255/

Or

https://phila.legistar.com/LegislationDe...030BDC961A62&Options=ID%7CText%7C&Search

Is this block (Hamilton to Callowhill/15th to 16th) where the Community College wants to build a tower? Wow, this area has gone from parking lots galore to developed (including under construction) in no time. The only big empty spaces left between Vine to Spring Garden/Broad to 22nd are the big lot behind the Free Library (dare we ever hope for that beautiful addition?) and that lot with environmental problems. I'm hopeful that the costs involved in developing the latter are going to make sense sooner rather than later. I'd love to know what the nature of the problem is, that it is allowed to lie fallow. I guess it doesn't pose any danger or there'd have been a cleanup already.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by 1487

you people need to keep things in perspective. There is a lot of room for improvement but construction is booming, population is increasing and office vacancy is down. When you consider what's actually going on it's hard to sit there and say "the city is going downhill solely because we have incompetent politicians in City Hall that are incapable of doing anything business friendly". Not sure that is what the evidence supports. And saying things like Phoenix is growing faster than Philly is proof that Philly isn't doing anything right doesn't hold water.

I literally said none of this. I'm more excited about Philly's future than I have every been, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Even though I work in NYC and split my time between NYC and Philly, I own two properties in Philly. One is a house in NoLibs that I completely renovated over the course of ten years and another is a house in Germantown that I settle on in 2 weeks with the goal of doing the same thing.

But what is amazing, is your tolerance of mediocrity.

You know how most people make things better?

By setting their expectations higher.

We're not asking for miracles and gold paved streets. Just some additional services that would entice more tax payers to you know, continue moving in to pay more taxes.

My NYC apt is in a tertiary Brooklyn neighborhood that is very middle of the road in terms of NYC, and even Brooklyn. And gasp. It has 2X weekly street cleaning and underground wires.

We're not asking for a lot here. Give me a break.

In Philly I'd take once a month street cleaning and a 15 year plan to start burying all the wires between Washington and Cecil B Moore.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Human Scale

And so it begins.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/greaterphiladelphiaplanners/permalink/1033980456624255/

Or

https://phila.legistar.com/LegislationDe...030BDC961A62&Options=ID%7CText%7C&Search

Boom! Looks to be mixed-use academic and "housing." Will it be student housing? Or market rate luxury apartments?

[br323206]

Originally Posted by summersm343

City population - as we all know, Philadelphia is currently #5, but about to be surpassed by Phoenix any year now and drop to #6. It will also eventually be surpassed by San Antonio, San Diego and Dallas.

I actually agree that we need tax reform and we need to get the hell out of our own way when it comes to being business friendly. But I hate city population comparisons. Philadelphia is 134 square miles. Phoenix is 517 square miles. San Antonio is 461 square miles. Dallas is 340 square miles. San Diego is 325 square miles. These cities are growing by annexation. If anything this fact is evidence that we need to change our annexation laws in PA so we can bring Lower Merion, Cheltenham, Haverford, Conshohocken, etc. into our tax base. That's never going to happen though.

[Human Scale]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Boom! Looks to be mixed-use academic and "housing." Will it be student housing? Or market rate luxury apartments?

Idk but it would be nice to balance out the skyline view from the art museum

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by br323206

I actually agree that we need tax reform and we need to get the hell out of our own way when it comes to being business friendly. But I hate city population comparisons. Philadelphia is 134 square miles. Phoenix is 517 square miles. San Antonio is 461 square miles. Dallas is 340 square miles. San Diego is 325 square miles. These cities are growing by annexation. If anything this fact is evidence that we need to change our annexation laws in PA so we can bring Lower Merion, Cheltenham, Haverford, Conshohocken, etc. into our tax base. That's never going to happen though.

And we shouldn't want it to happen. The city should feel like a city with high density, energy, walk-ability, outdoor art, landmarks and public institutions, etc. Doctoring up the population numbers by including the "suburbs" is really all that is. It won't make the city feel more like a city. A sprawling city traverse by major state roads and/or highways is kinda of an oxymoron.

[Arch+Eng]

Annex Delco and make Far South West

[1487]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I literally said none of this. I'm more excited about Philly's future than I have every been, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. Even though I work in NYC and split my time between NYC and Philly, I own two properties in Philly. One is a house in NoLibs that I completely renovated over the course of ten years and another is a house in Germantown that I settle on in 2 weeks with the goal of doing the same thing.

But what is amazing, is your tolerance of mediocrity.

You know how most people make things better?

By setting their expectations higher.

We're not asking for miracles and gold paved streets. Just some additional services that would entice more tax payers to you know, continue moving in to pay more taxes.

My NYC apt is in a tertiary Brooklyn neighborhood that is very middle of the road in terms of NYC, and even Brooklyn. And gasp. It has 2X weekly street cleaning and underground wires.

We're not asking for a lot here. Give me a break.

In Philly I'd take once a month street cleaning and a 15 year plan to start burying all the wires between Washington and Cecil B Moore.

I didn't claim you made those exact statements- I was just getting at the crux of your argument. There is a real world of give and take when it comes to fiscal responsibility and expenditure of tax dollars. I am amused by people like yourself who believe the only reason we can't have our cake and eat it too is because the people in City Hall are stupid. I'm all for higher standards and I think the tax abatement should be significantly tweaked to generate some money to do something specific like expanded street cleaning. But nothing is free and complex problems don't become simple just because you want to presume they aren't fixed solely due to incompetence. And as I already told you, burying PECO wires isn't a City responsibility and never will be. I'd wager the wires in Brooklyn you are talking about were buried from the day they were installed- just like they are in CC Philly. I can't say that overhead wires falls in the top 20 complaints I've heard from Philly residents- in fact this may the first time Ive come across anyone who believes this is one of the city's biggest flaws.....

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Boom! Looks to be mixed-use academic and "housing." Will it be student housing? Or market rate luxury apartments?

I take back what I said. It looks like this will leave the large lot along 16th, as well as the existing garage at 15th & Callowhill. Looks like demo of an existing low rise and taking out a small lot at 15th & Hamilton.