The Great Canadian Skyline Thread! - Page 478

scrapin · #**9541** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 11:50 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rousseau

That "Toronto" sign is iconic and something tourists flock to, but I'm not a huge fan, personally. Though it's certainly an apt totem of this age of ours, in which narcissism and primary colour in-your-face self-promotion are valued over substance and subtlety. It's very Drake/hip-hop, in other words. You just know, and I know I've read this kind of thing somewhere, that vacuous kids all over the U.S. watching broadcasts of NBA games in Toronto are witness to shots of this view cutting directly from helicopter panoramas of the skyline at night, and are thinking: "Cool."

I say this as a diehard NBA fan who hates everything about the NBA save for what happens on the court between blows of the whistle. I know I'm a curmudgeonly minority whimpering in the woods with this opinion, but I can't help it. It's not Glenn Gould's Toronto anymore, and it's a bit sad that the city hasn't retained more of that character in its headlong rush into world prominence.

Never seen anybody say "I dont like black people and their culture" using quite that many words before! Impressive!

SkahHigh · #**9542** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 12:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapin

Never seen anybody say "I dont like black people and their culture" using quite that many words before! Impressive!

Did you fall on your head again this morning?

Metro-One · #**9543** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 12:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapin

Never seen anybody say "I dont like black people and their culture" using quite that many words before! Impressive!

Really? You really took it that way?

And even if that were anything near his point (which I doubt it was), do people have to enjoy / like every culture on earth?

Must we all like cowboy culture too? Or right wing American gun culture?

I will be the first to admit that there are many various cultures that I love (from various continents) and many cultures that I don't enjoy / even annoyed by (from various continents) but that does not equate to hating people or feeling they have no right to express their culture.

These comes off as Principal PC style politics.

rousseau · #**9544** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 5:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapin

Never seen anybody say "I dont like black people and their culture" using quite that many words before! Impressive!

I use even more in my book. Should I post a link to the Amazon page for it?

isaidso · #**9545** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 5:44 PM**

^^ I do like the Toronto sign but largely agree with your views about the NBA and that this is not Gould's Toronto any more. As much as we Torontonians like to show how world class we are, the predominant culture here is very low brow and desperate to impress by acquiring whatever bauble it perceives will make it world class in the eyes of foreigners.

In other words, Toronto is still very culturally immature and will ditch its own culture for another in a millisecond because it doesn't value its own. The Toronto view is if it comes from here it's no good. "Look how European this is = Look how sophisticated we are". Varsity Blues football = embarassment; NCAA football = Look how worldly we are (even though football comes from the U of T).

There's a sign that U of T football players pass by every time they walk to the football field that reads "Remember Who You Are" It's in reference to football's origins at the U of T in 1861. Of course Torontonians think football comes from the US.

Acajack · #**9546** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 5:51 PM**

Rousseau - welcome to the dark side of the force.

esquire · #**9547** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 5:55 PM**

Nearly all Canadian cities are guilty of what Rousseau says to varying degrees, but I don't think any of them are quite as eager to cast off their historical character to gain favourable attention from The World (The World defined, of course, as the American media/pop culture) as Toronto is.

Acajack · #**9548** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 6:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapin

Never seen anybody say "I dont like black people and their culture" using quite that many words before! Impressive!

I am not reading it that way at all.

There is an element of contemporary African-American culture that I think it is safe to say is not particularly desirable, and that glorifies violence, lawlessnes, disrespect for women, ignorance, and generally loutish behaviour.

Unfortunately the NBA (and to an increasing degree, the NFL) has chosen to play this card in its corporate marketing.

Many African-Americans are also at odds with this particular sub-culture within the wider culture of theirs that is of course as rich as any other culture. (Richer in many ways, in fact. But that's another topic.) And these unpleasant sub-cultures exist in any culture: just look at white rednecks.

I can't speak for Rousseau but somehow I doubt he has a big problem with African-American culture as embodied by Ray Charles, Oprah Winfrey, Don Cheadle, Frederick Douglass, Maya Angelou, Denzel Washington, Billie Holiday, Toni Morrison, Jessye Norman, Louis Armstrong, Stevie Wonder, etc.

Another question of course is what this NBA-infused African-American culture actually has to do with Toronto. Toronto's black community is mostly Afro-Caribbean and increasingly sub-Saharan African. It's none of my business of course but I still find it odd (and given the results south of the border, maybe a bit worrisome) to have African-American identity markers generally imported and laid onto Toronto's black community lock, stock and barrel, as if it was the most natural thing in the world: "they're black down there, we're black up here, s'all the same!"

hipster duck · #**9549** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 6:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not reading it that way at all.

There is an element of contemporary African-American culture that I think it is safe to say is not particularly desirable, and that glorifies violence, lawlessnes, disrespect for women, ignorance, and generally loutish behaviour.

Unfortunately the NBA (and to an increasing degree, the NFL) has chosen to play this card in its corporate marketing.

Yes. And sometimes the structural/historical reasons for this behaviour can only go so far. For example, there's been a viral video running around where some pranksters rig a bike with an electrode so that thieves get electrocuted when they try to steal the bike in a decidedly non-black neighbourhood of LA. If you view the video, all of the thieves are black.

Quote:

Many African-Americans are also at odds with this particular sub-culture within the wider culture of theirs that is of course as rich as any other culture. (Richer in many ways, in fact. But that's another topic.) And these unpleasant sub-cultures exist in any culture: just look at white rednecks.

I can't speak for Rousseau but somehow I doubt he has a big problem with African-American culture as embodied by Ray Charles, Oprah Winfrey, Don Cheadle, Frederick Douglass, Maya Angelou, Denzel Washington, Billie Holiday, Toni Morrison, Jessye Norman, Louis Armstrong, Stevie Wonder, etc.

Younger generations of black Americans too: Aaron McGruder, Donald Glover, Talib Kweli. And let's not forget the Obamas.

You're right, though. It's none of our business, and all we can be as non-black people are passive observers. The things you talk about are definitely contentious issues and the subject of a lot of debate within the black community.

mistercorporate · #**9550** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 6:35 PM**

^^
African American popular culture is incorporated by black communities worldwide. In Anglo-Africa everything from haircuts to hip hop and even the accents are imitated or appropriated when they emigrate to other countries.

Another thing,
What's with all this nostalgia for Glenn Gould's Toronto? Most old timers tell me Toronto was a dour and boring place in the 60's. That the changes brought about now are generally for the better (culturally speaking). Even I've seen drastic positive changes in the last 20+ years, a lot more open mindedness and internationalization.

Acajack · #**9551** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 6:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Younger generations of black Americans too: Aaron McGruder, Donald Glover, Talib Kweli. And let's not forget the Obamas.
.

I half-deliberately left out many contemporary people, as it often takes time to see who has staying power and who doesn't.

But somehow I'd bet someone like Usher is more likely to have a lasting legacy than 50 Cent.

Acajack · #**9552** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 6:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hipster duck

You're right, though. It's none of our business, and all we can be as non-black people are passive observers. The things you talk about are definitely contentious issues and the subject of a lot of debate within the black community.

Well there is an actual debate in the community, and I do know whose side I am on.

But yeah, I am an outsider like you.

Acajack · #**9553** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 6:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

^^

Another thing,
What's with all this nostalgia for Glenn Gould's Toronto? Most old timers tell me Toronto was a dour and boring place in the 60's. That the changes brought about now are generally for the better (culturally speaking). Even I've seen drastic positive changes in the last 20+ years, a lot more open mindedness and internationalization.
]

I know others have spoken on this and will let them answer. I do see the same things as them but I don't have any particular nostalgia for any Toronto of any era.

Acajack · #**9554** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 6:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

^^
African American popular culture is incorporated by black communities worldwide. In Anglo-Africa everything from haircuts to hip hop and even the accents are imitated or appropriated when they emigrate to other countries.

Very very true of course.

There is however a range for this stuff between ''complementing'' on one end and ''supplanting'' on the other extreme.

How close to which end Toronto or Johannesburg or Lagos or London are is a matter of debate.

esquire · #**9555** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 7:06 PM**

To play the devil's advocate, there did seem to be quite a bit of fetishizing of British culture in Old Toronto. Although that said, it was at least indigenous to Old Toronto's predominantly WASPy population... as opposed to today's scene of young Jamaicans, Ethiopians or Portguese kids copping American hip hop culture.

Acajack · #**9556** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 7:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

To play the devil's advocate, there did seem to be quite a bit of fetishizing of British culture in Old Toronto. Although that said, it was at least indigenous to Old Toronto's predominantly WASPy population... as opposed to today's scene of young Jamaicans, Ethiopians or Portguese kids copping American hip hop culture.

In fairness, there is some overlap and these things aren't hermetically sealed. Black artists from the West Indies (including many Jamaicans and Jamaican-Americans) have influenced African-American music a great deal, for example.

But even so, you're right that things in Toronto are still heavily weighted towards whatever is popular stateside when it comes to young people (regardless of origins).

Given the demographics of the city, you'd think stuff like this might hit the mainstream more. (This isn't from Toronto BTW.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMQEn49tGHk

Chadillaccc · #**9557** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 8:23 PM**

http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/photo/l...ary-high-res-stock-photography/526527625

caltrane74 · #**9558** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 8:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapin

Never seen anybody say "I dont like black people and their culture" using quite that many words before! Impressive!

He didn't say that at all.

I always think of Toronto as the ultimate puritanical city. The city where everyone goes to church on Sunday, and obeys all the laws concerning litter.
It was once said, that "Toronto is New York, run by the Swiss"

jetsbackincanada · #**9559** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 10:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

In fairness, there is some overlap and these things aren't hermetically sealed. Black artists from the West Indies (including many Jamaicans and Jamaican-Americans) have influenced African-American music a great deal, for example.

But even so, you're right that things in Toronto are still heavily weighted towards whatever is popular stateside when it comes to young people (regardless of origins).

Given the demographics of the city, you'd think stuff like this might hit the mainstream more. (This isn't from Toronto BTW.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMQEn49tGHk

Well ODDLY enough, at this very moment , and for the last 6 months, the RNB Charts have been OWNED by Toronto!! Period!!!!
There have been weeks of late where 7 of the top 8 spots were Weeknd, Drake, and Alessia Cara....

So it has changed as of late!!

AS a DJ who hails from Toronto originally... it is weird to see Toronto be the HOTSPOT for African American music scene.. its even referenced in a lot of songs.... Toronto is a bigger deal here than u seem to realize.... maybe more so in the sports world and the Music world than the red neck '
Murica world!!

caltrane74 · #**9560** Posted **Feb 12, 2016, 10:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetsbackincanada

Well ODDLY enough, at this very moment , and for the last 6 months, the RNB Charts have been OWNED by Toronto!! Period!!!!
There have been weeks of late where 7 of the top 8 spots were Weeknd, Drake, and Alessia Cara....

So it has changed as of late!!

you don't lie... 4/5

Billboard R & B Chart