Winnipeg Construction VIII

[oftheMoon]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

This whole P&M re-opening charade is becoming comical, so they bring in a so-called expert from NYC who draws comparison between P&M and Times Square when in reality P&M should be more accurately compared to Albert & Victoria!

Pretty tough to draw any comparisons between Times Square and P&M to anyone with a straight face, NYC Metro 20 million, NYC most visited city in the US and fifth in the world, the US eastern seaboard with 112,642,503 people(36% of the US total population) to draw on for visitors. Winnipeg 750K, not even on Canada's top 10 list of visited cities.

The comparison is about the process - what was done to change Times Square from a car oriented area to pedestrian focused. But agreed, P&M/Winnipeg has no comparison to Times Square/NYC in terms of tourist numbers and population. So, if something of the magnitude of Times Square can very successfully make the transition to a pedestrian focused area like they did, P&M in tiny ole Winnipeg should be a breeze!

I absolutely don’t understand why anyone does not understand the importance of making ANY area pedestrian friendly. Step the hell out of your car once in a while and take a walk and enjoy. Or see how disruptive the barriers can be.

I walk from the East Exchange to Graham Ave every day to work - down the escalators & stairs, around the “circus” and back up on the other side. Every single day, both ways – it’s a pain in the ass. But, I also watch the traffic as I walk – for every 15 cars that pass me, on average, there is only 1 of them with 2 or more people in it.

Further, I know scores of people who live in the same suburbs who each drive their own vehicles to work every day. They probably wave at each other in their driveways as they get into their cars and park next to each other in the parkade. It’s not pedestrians, un-synced traffic lights or the opening of P&M that are the traffic problems – it’s these single rider personal transportation pod vehicles that are the problem.

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Right because anyone coming to Winnipeg to visit will surely stop first at Portage and Main to behold the site and stare in awe at the amazing relativity medium sized buildings and quiver ecstatically at the chance to have the orgasmic experience of crossing Portage on Main above ground on foot.

"Cross that off our bucket list Mary were off to see the RCMP Heritage Centre in Regina now"!

Who cares? I want it open and I live here. I couldn't give a shit what some tourist may or may not want to see.

You guys really need to get a grip if this is the kind of arguments you are going to raise. It really doesn't help your cause.

Lets see:

- buses might get delayed one light cycle
- tourists don't come here, so who cares
- The entrances to the underground mall are dingy, so let's just clean those up.
- traffic will be affected by those pesky pedestrians (who can cross at literally every other intersection in the downtown, or manually across Main street at their leisure)

Riveting stuff you guys. I think we are all several brain cells less than when we started on this recent P&M discussion.

[Cyro]

Interesting P&M discussion up to a point, but it's turned into a pissing match at this point. Let's stop the back and forth bickering now.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by drew

Who cares? I want it open and I live here. I couldn't give a shit what some tourist may or may not want to see.

You guys really need to get a grip if this is the kind of arguments you are going to raise. It really doesn't help your cause.

Lets see:

- buses might get delayed one light cycle
- tourists don't come here, so who cares
- The entrances to the underground mall are dingy, so let's just clean those up.
- traffic will be affected by those pesky pedestrians (who can cross at literally every other intersection in the downtown, or manually across Main street at their leisure)

Riveting stuff you guys. I think we are all several brain cells less than when we started on this recent P&M discussion.

Lets see:

-is there a legal document that says the crossing can not be reopened, yes.
-is there a good reason to open the intersection to pedestrians, just because
-are there economic advantages of opening the intersection to pedestrians, no
-will there be delays for commuters if the intersection is opened to pedestrian traffic, yes but we don't live in NW or NE Winnipeg so who cares.

[rrskylar]

Let me ask you something Drew, are you in favour of BRT and the extension of the route to the U of M?

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Let me ask you something Drew, are you in favour of BRT and the extension of the route to the U of M?

Yes.

But: I favour LRT over BRT, and I also support removing buses from the downtown area altogether and replacing them with a modern network of streetcars.

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Lets see:

-is there a legal document that says the crossing can not be reopened, yes.
-is there a good reason to open the intersection to pedestrians, just because
-are there economic advantages of opening the intersection to pedestrians, no
-will there be delays for commuters if the intersection is opened to pedestrian traffic, yes but we don't live in NW or NE Winnipeg so who cares.

This document expires next year - hence the discussion on reopening the intersection.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Lets see:

-is there a legal document that says the crossing can not be reopened, yes.
-is there a good reason to open the intersection to pedestrians, just because
-are there economic advantages of opening the intersection to pedestrians, no
-will there be delays for commuters if the intersection is opened to pedestrian traffic, yes but we don't live in NW or NE Winnipeg so who cares.

actually, the answers are:

In 2019 NO
YES
YES
MAYBE, BUT LIKELY NOT, but downtown is not a freeway.

[trueviking]

there is no accessible route to cross portage and main without relying on using the elevators that are in private buildings, which can open and close as they see fit.

When those buildings are open, here is how someone in a wheelchair crosses Main Street at Portage Avenue.

[trueviking]

it was confirmed last night that if one property owner declines, they will be able to force another 40 year closure. This was given to them in 1988....staggering.

[Cyro]

^ Thanks for the update.


Just a reminder, to posters in general, please keep the discussion civil if you wish to continue discussing it. Thanks

[bomberjet]

So without an extended court battle, we are doomed. Why would the ARTIS building owners give in? This was basically done with their development as the primary motivator.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

This whole P&M re-opening charade is becoming comical, so they bring in a so-called expert from NYC who draws comparison between P&M and Times Square when in reality P&M should be more accurately compared to Albert & Victoria!
.

You should have actually attended the talk. He was very explicit about the two cities being wildly different, not drawing direct comparisons and not thinking something from one city can be copy/pasted to another.

Is it really that inconceivable that someone might have a room at the Fairmont and walk over to a game at MTS Centre? Or someone might be staying at the humphry on main and walk to a restaurant in the east exchange? The corner connects the downtown and its current state is unacceptable. Anyway the argument that no one walks there is moot. You get what you plan/build for. Design and intersection for no pedestrians and thats what you'll get, and vice-versa.

[oftheMoon]

Originally Posted by trueviking

it was confirmed last night that if one property owner declines, they will be able to force another 40 year closure. This was given to them in 1988....staggering.

Ouch. Was wondering about that.

Who are all the actual property owners involved in the agreement? I know the buildings, but not who is on this agreement.

[emeraldeyes]

Originally Posted by trueviking

it was confirmed last night that if one property owner declines, they will be able to force another 40 year closure. This was given to them in 1988....staggering.

Good grief.
Then is the only avenue high-profile, intense, and sustained public pressure?

[CoryB]

^^ Winnipeg Square/360 Main stand to lose hugely if the corner is opened. They have reportedly long been the one strongly objecting to opening the corner. On the surface of these plans there seems to be absolutely no incentive for them to support opening the intersection.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

^^ Winnipeg Square/360 Main stand to lose hugely if the corner is opened. They have reportedly long been the one strongly objecting to opening the corner. On the surface of these plans there seems to be absolutely no incentive for them to support opening the intersection.

I seem to recall a previous mayor (hmm, was it Katz or Murray?) saying something along the lines of 360 Main's landlord was the only property owner opposed to opening up P&M... for obvious reasons.

Although I kind of wonder, if the surrounding area were more appealing would they still get similar levels of traffic down to the mall anyway?

[drew]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

So without an extended court battle, we are doomed. Why would the ARTIS building owners give in? This was basically done with their development as the primary motivator.

Hopefully being swayed by public and administrative pressure.

I honestly don't see how much the barriers really will affect the bottom line of that mall. It has it's built in clientele at all four corners.

[emeraldeyes]

I think it is worth noting that the character of that mall has changed greatly since it was opened. Originally there were clothing stores, a book store, a few shoe stores and it was very much a mall like any other you might find. Stores that you could choose to either visit before or after work or on the lunch hour because it was easier to do that than perhaps taking a trip to the local mall after work in the evening.
If recent memory doesn't fail me, aren't most of the existing tenants very oriented to meeting the 'office hours' needs of the people nearby? I.E. cell phone providers, a drug store, food court, printer ink etc? They have developed into a niche mall of sorts with a relatively captive market in the people nearby. For the office towers, no one is likely to walk to the Shoppers at Portage Place even if the barricades are down when the Winnipeg Square one is closer.
Just a thought.

[drew]

Originally Posted by emeraldeyes

I think it is worth noting that the character of that mall has changed greatly since it was opened. Originally there were clothing stores, a book store, a few shoe stores and it was very much a mall like any other you might find. Stores that you could choose to either visit before or after work or on the lunch hour because it was easier to do that than perhaps taking a trip to the local mall after work in the evening.
If recent memory doesn't fail me, aren't most of the existing tenants very oriented to meeting the 'office hours' needs of the people nearby? I.E. cell phone providers, a drug store, food court, printer ink etc? They have developed into a niche mall of sorts with a relatively captive market in the people nearby. For the office towers, no one is likely to walk to the Shoppers at Portage Place even if the barricades are down when the Winnipeg Square one is closer.
Just a thought.

Yes, it's certainly more of a "service" mall more than a destination. There really is no point to going in there after hours, or even on the weekend.

It has deteriorated to this point even with the barriers in place. If anything, encouraging a more inviting pedestrian environment outside could get more people going there after hours.