Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Yes, I have.



That's just it: I guarantee you, in OCTrasnpottawa, you'd see reduced frequencies overall. Poor frequencies on the local service, and poor frequencies on the limiteds, esp. on the 12, where it is politically safe to cannibalize high-capacity buses and runs to re-assign to the suburbs.

Mark my words, after LRT comes in, you will see another cut to east-end service to re-assign capacity to the feeder routes from Orleans to Blair and from the west end to Tunneys.

Well, I am sure you will be within 5 km of LRT. That is the new gold standard.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Well, I am sure you will be within 5 km of LRT. That is the new gold standard.

Awesome. Because those 5 km, in the morning rush hour, take, um, an hour by bus.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Well, I am sure you will be within 5 km of LRT. That is the new gold standard.

The only significance I can think of for 5km being the number we hear over and over again is cycling. 5km is the upper limit of what most consider a reasonably short bike ride (analogous to the 800m rule for pedestrians).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The only significance I can think of for 5km being the number we hear over and over again is cycling. 5km is the upper limit of what most consider a reasonably short bike ride (analogous to the 800m rule for pedestrians).

That "800m" rule is entirely dependent on the pedestrian environment. 800m along a windswept, set-back "office park" boulevard is a lot farther distance than 800m along a street like Dalhousie or Bank or Wellington West.

The things that are conventionally supposed to be so esthetically pleasing for pedestrians - big green medians and pathways set back from roadways - make distances much longer psychologically.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

That "800m" rule is entirely dependent on the pedestrian environment. 800m along a windswept, set-back "office park" boulevard is a lot farther distance than 800m along a street like Dalhousie or Bank or Wellington West.

The things that are conventionally supposed to be so esthetically pleasing for pedestrians - big green medians and pathways set back from roadways - make distances much longer psychologically.

The 800 m limit is some silly invention to justify that service is being provided. I believe that the transit industry standard is actually 400 m, as beyond that people start looking for alternative transportation and ridership potential begins to steeply fall off.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The 800 m limit is some silly invention to justify that service is being provided. I believe that the transit industry standard is actually 400 m, as beyond that people start looking for alternative transportation and ridership potential begins to steeply fall off.

Many mornings I actually walk close to 1000m to transit, simply because one route that is 200m away is a bit too indirect, and the other route, 400m away, is incessantly overcrowded, and unreliable schedule-wise, problems that the city and OC Transpo do not care about, at least not outside the suburbs.

I am mostly able-bodied, and have that choice.

[Aylmer]

Actually, the City of Edmonton conducted a study on walksheds and determined that, while 50% of people will walk 400m for a bus, that distance is increased to just short of 900m for LRT, so 800m is actually a conservative number.

Thinking about it, I would indeed walk 800m for higher-quality, frequent transit.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, the City of Edmonton conducted a study on walksheds and determined that, while 50% of people will walk 400m for a bus, that distance is increased to just short of 900m for LRT, so 800m is actually a conservative number.

Thinking about it, I would indeed walk 800m for higher-quality, frequent transit.

I can see that, but then again, high quality transit will be on the most heavily used corridors and local transit will need to connect to it. So, yes you may want to walk further to it, to avoid a transfer, but local community transit will naturally focus on that same location anyways. So, you are willing to walk 800 m but the buses will already be there. You will have the choice to walk 800 m to avoid a transfer or walk 400 m or less to a bus route. But getting further away from higher-quality transit, 800 m is not an acceptable standard. There are no longer choices, other than getting a ride or buying a car. And if you have the money, the latter has proven to be the choice.

[1overcosc]

400m is a very low limit and people will routinely walk much farther than that for rapid transit.

You see this with the Transitway. People who live in the 500m-800m distance range of a Transitway station often just walk to the Transitway and rarely take a local bus even if its much closer. When I lived in Sandy Hill, I walked 600m to Laurier Station even though the 5 was literally outside my door. I never took the 5 even though I lived there for over a year. That bus is so slow that I routinely beat it on foot from Waller to Nelson

Metrolinx has concluded 800m is an adequate rule for rapid transit, 500m for local transit. Note those distances are walking routes obviously (not as the crow flies) which means in suburban areas the catchment of 800m and 500m is surprisingly low.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Oh - and seriously, U of O students who live within a few blocks of campus in Sandy Hill, can't you walk? This is another source of delay, esp. with 40-footers.

This is one of the unintended side effects of the U-Pass program. Students will take advantage of their "free" (perceived as free) bus access to take transit in huge numbers over insanely short distances causing delays. You see that in Kingston, too. The local routes on Union Street are practically brought to their knees by insane loads of students taking buses for a handful of stops.

Oddly, other demographics, even young professionals who are much the same in a lot of respects, will just walk those distances. Something about growing up makes you realize that it's okay to walk.

[Capital Shaun]

I grew up in Riverview Park. Even though the 8, 85, and 86 were all within walking distance I usually just walked the 1200m to & from Hurdman. Admittedly I was young & able bodied but it was just way more convenient then trying to time my walk/trip with one of 3 routes that ran on different area streets.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Oddly, other demographics, even young professionals who are much the same in a lot of respects, will just walk those distances. Something about growing up makes you realize that it's okay to walk.

Most of those university-age people these days, I suspect, grew up in suburbs, being shuttled around in mini-vans. Walking is beneath them - even if it is less time-consuming, and more logical, to say nothing of more comfortable, to do so.

And I utterly despair to see how many people smart enough to get into university cannot figure out (A) how to operate the three different kinds of bus rear doors, or (B) which buses you can, and which buses you can't, board other than in the front.

Like, there are word-thingies right at the doors, inside and out, in two languages and in pictograms, which tell you.

[lrt's friend]

I live perhaps 1500 m from rapid transit. Have I walked that far? Never. Why bother taking transit at all at that distance? That is at least a 30 minute walk and in bad weather?

My point is not about rapid transit, it is about encouraging ridership and 400 m is the standard in the industry after which ridership begins to fall off. Sure, some are willing to walk farther, maybe much farther, but we are talking about serving the masses in good weather and bad and not just those who are willing and able to walk long distances and willing to put up with pouring rain, sleet, snow or -30C.

Seriously, how many would really be willing to walk 1200 m in the midst of a thunderstorm? Most of us have been caught in a thunderstorm and will be d**m happy if there is a bus shelter much closer.

We got to stop thinking about our personal bravado in tolerating the elements and think about serving the average person.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I live perhaps 1500 m from rapid transit. Have I walked that far? Never. Why bother taking transit at all at that distance? That is at least a 30 minute walk and in bad weather?

1500m is a lot less than 30 minutes (it's 15-20), unless 1500m is an as-the-crow-flies number.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I live perhaps 1500 m from rapid transit. Have I walked that far? Never. Why bother taking transit at all at that distance? That is at least a 30 minute walk and in bad weather?

An able-bodied adult walks about 100m a minute.

[eemy]

That would be a fast walk, but in line with how people would walk if they're focused on a destination.

Incidentally, the treadmills at the Y I go to consider 6 kph (100 m/min) a jog. I don't know if it's even physically possible for me to jog at that pace.

[1overcosc]

6 kph is a little fast. That's the typical walking speed of someone in a hurry.

5 kph is the typical human walking speed.

Crosswalks designed to account for seniors using walkers and such use 1 metre per second (60 metres per minute or 3.6 kph), so you can say that's the minimum human walking speed.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

6 kph is a little fast. That's the typical walking speed of someone in a hurry.

Like a person racing to get to a bus stop before an unpredictable OC Transpo bus arrives?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

1500m is a lot less than 30 minutes (it's 15-20), unless 1500m is an as-the-crow-flies number.

I was guesstimating. More likely in excess of 2000m especially considering the road connections are not direct but it would be a 30 minute walk at a moderate pace no matter the exact distance. Regardless, it is not a practical distance especially since parts lack sidewalks on a busy street.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I was guesstimating. More likely in excess of 2000m especially considering the road connections are not direct but it would be a 30 minute walk at a moderate pace no matter the exact distance. Regardless, it is not a practical distance especially since parts lack sidewalks on a busy street.

It's probably around 2.5km, then.

That's definitely beyond reasonable walking distance to rapid transit for everything but very niche uses like overnight service.