Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Fine, but adding a bunch of dead-end detours to save a 2 minute walk adds a lot of time to the route (45 minutes to get from St. Laurent to Rideau Centre if it is on schedule) which pushes riders onto other (overcrowded) routes or into cars (which further slows down bus service in the area).

where are these two-minute walks?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

where are these two-minute walks?

Montfort entrance to Montreal Road (which has regular bus service)
Gary Armstrong Entrance to Beechwood (which has regular bus service)
Anywhere on Brittany to Montreal or St. Laurent (both having regular bus service).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Montfort entrance to Montreal Road (which has regular bus service)
Gary Armstrong Entrance to Beechwood (which has regular bus service)

Those are not "two-minute walks" for many of the people going to or from a hospital, a retirement home, and a care home.

Anywhere on Brittany to Montreal or St. Laurent (both having regular bus service).

Brittany is nearly 1km long, so there are people there, and on the streets off Brittany, who have >2-minute walks.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Those are not "two-minute walks" for many of the people going to or from a hospital, a retirement home, and a care home.

1) OC transpo does not have a general policy of providing front door service to hospitals, retirement homes or care homes (at the civic hospital for example people are expected to walk from Carling) or most buildings set back from the road
2) Para transpo is designed for people with mobility challenges

Brittany is nearly 1km long, so there are people there, and on the streets off Brittany, who have >2-minute walks.

So 3 minutes.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Those are not "two-minute walks" for many of the people going to or from a hospital, a retirement home, and a care home.



Brittany is nearly 1km long, so there are people there, and on the streets off Brittany, who have >2-minute walks.

Yes, there needs to be service on Brittany Drive because there is reasonably high density, real transit ridership, and poor road patterns plus you have to consider not just the people living on the bus route but also those on the surrounding streets, which may be further away from St. Laurent and Montreal Road.

When we keep suggesting people walk farther, all we are telling them to do is to think about buying a car, then you have lost them as a rider permanently.

Some of the decisions that were being made when the system was being rationalized were based on distances as the crow flies and not based on real street patterns and pedestrian access.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

1) OC transpo does not have a general policy of providing front door service to hospitals, retirement homes or care homes (at the civic hospital for example people are expected to walk from Carling) or most buildings set back from the road
2) Para transpo is designed for people with mobility challenges

It may not have a policy, but that is the practice.

And regular transit service to these facilities fills the gap for those who may not be "challenged" enough to qualilfy for Para, and, with the low-floor bus fleet now in place, takes pressure off the already strapped Para service.

Again, these "detours" are not bugs in the routing of the 5 - they are features. Without them, the 5 loses most of its utility on the east side of town.

It is disturbing that the "solutions" that keep getting proposed on the east side always involve cutting service, rather than, you know, improving it.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

1) OC transpo does not have a general policy of providing front door service to hospitals, retirement homes or care homes (at the civic hospital for example people are expected to walk from Carling) or most buildings set back from the road
2) Para transpo is designed for people with mobility challenges



So 3 minutes.

Not true, because the cost of Para Transpo is so high, the city wishes as many people as possible with mobility challenges to use regular transit. This is why we have invested in all low floor transit vehicles. The people who have no alternative but Para Transpo have major limitations to their ability to move around the city because Para Transpo demand always exceeds supply. A friend of mine talks about the 'joy' of using Para Transpo and its severe limitations, ie having to book trips well in advance, and lengthy waits that can turn a routine appointment into an all day affair.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Not true, because the cost of Para Transpo is so high, the city wishes as many people as possible with mobility challenges to use regular transit. This is why we have invested in all low floor transit vehicles. The people who have no alternative but Para Transpo have major limitations to their ability to move around the city because Para Transpo demand always exceeds supply. A friend of mine talks about the 'joy' of using Para Transpo and its severe limitations, ie having to book trips well in advance, and lengthy waits that can turn a routine appointment into an all day affair.

I don't think its possible to organize a bus service on the assumption that people can't walk 200m (which is about 4 rows at a Walmart). It is important to help people with mobility aids and services like para transport but it is not practical for the main bus system to be built on that assumption, and making the service super slow pushes more people into cars.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't think its possible to organize a bus service on the assumption that people can't walk 200m (which is about 4 rows at a Walmart). It is important to help people with mobility aids and services like para transport but it is not practical for the main bus system to be built on that assumption, and making the service super slow pushes more people into cars.

The main bus system is NOT built on that assumption.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The main bus system is NOT built on that assumption.

You've just argued that all of these "features" are necessary because people can't walk 200m (possibly up to 300m on Brittany) to a street where regular bus service is available.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You've just argued that all of these "features" are necessary because people can't walk 200m (possibly up to 300m on Brittany) to a street where regular bus service is available.

1. I didn't argue that. I noted, however, that there are locations where, yes, a 200m walk would not be a reasonable expectation given the nature of the facility being served. You ever had anyone you know live in the Island Lodge or Garry Armstrong?

2. No, the bus system is NOT built on that assumption, but the fact that there are bus routes and stops which bring service right to doors does not, IN ANY WAY, prove that the bus service IS built on that assumption.

3. There are people on (and off) Brittany who would have to walk more than 300m. The street is nearly a km long, plus the additional distances from side streets. Geometry is a fun field of mathematics.

[MaxHeadroom]

The bus system is full of compromises to deal with geography, obstacles, demand... I have no idea what bus service was like before the Transitway was built, but it must have sucked.

BTW Can someone kindly remove the word "Rapid" from the thread title? There is nothing rapid about any transit in this town, anyway.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by MaxHeadroom

The bus system is full of compromises to deal with geography, obstacles, demand... I have no idea what bus service was like before the Transitway was built, but it must have sucked.

BTW Can someone kindly remove the word "Rapid" from the thread title? There is nothing rapid about any transit in this town, anyway.

In some respects the bus system was better before the Transitways. The Transitways helped speed up service for commuters coming from the suburbs to downtown, but it also removed service off the main streets. Before the Transitways, there was more frequent service on Bank Street and Carling Avenue. Some of the other downtown routes were decimated such as Route 5 and particularly Route 6.

[lrt's friend]

I am on a streetcar kick lately. My last suggestion was a Rideau Street Streetcar to support all the new condo towers and to spur more redevelopment on Rideau. Now I am suggesting a streetcar connecting Pimisi Station to the Canadian History Museum via the Zibi development and the federal office buildings in Hull. This will support all the new proposed developments and provide the continued needed transit access to federal offices from the Ottawa side of the river. If we were really ambitious, we should extend it back to Ottawa via the Interprovincial Bridge to the old streetcar turnaround under the Chateau Laurier therefore providing direct access to the Rideau Centre and the centre of downtown and providing a connection to my Rideau streetcar idea.

[Aylmer]

I've toyed with a similar idea: a streetcar (with RoW where possible) running from the Market down Sparks, then cutting through the Gardens of the Provinces along the bottom of the escarpement to Albert, then up Booth/Chaudière Bridge, along Promenade du Portage and down the Alexandra Bridge to the old streetcar terminus. It could actually have Toronto-style streetcar RoW along most of the route with the exception of the Chaudière Bridge and Prom. Portage and, as you mentioned, tie together Hull, Zibi, LeBreton, Downtown and the Market, bridging some of the remaining gaps like the Escarpment and the river.

A fun little idea!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I've toyed with a similar idea: a streetcar (with RoW where possible) running from the Market down Sparks, then cutting through the Gardens of the Provinces along the bottom of the escarpement to Albert, then up Booth/Chaudière Bridge, along Promenade du Portage and down the Alexandra Bridge to the old streetcar terminus. It could actually have Toronto-style streetcar RoW along most of the route with the exception of the Chaudière Bridge and Prom. Portage and, as you mentioned, tie together Hull, Zibi, LeBreton, Downtown and the Market, bridging some of the remaining gaps like the Escarpment and the river.

A fun little idea!

Of course, Sparks Street actually used to run through the Garden of the Provinces before they demolished everything to make the Garden back in the 60s. I think the Garden of the Provinces was a Centennial project.

[MarkR]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Of course, Sparks Street actually used to run through the Garden of the Provinces before they demolished everything to make the Garden back in the 60s. I think the Garden of the Provinces was a Centennial project.

PastOttawa site has two views of this:



and



From:

http://www.pastottawa.com/comparison/tip-top-garage-sparks-and-wellington-street/31/

and

http://www.pastottawa.com/comparison/wellington-and-sparks-street-intersection/74/

[Aylmer]

Especially with LeBreton Flats, I think that it will be very important to start to think of how it will connect with the urban fabric of Downtown. I think it would be great if they were to bring back that built connection along Sparks with two or three buildings stretching from Pooley's Bridge (I think that's what it's called) to the Gardens along with the streetcar. It would be a real boon to Sparks Street since it would have something at both ends instead of just withering away to nothing; can you imagine a game night crowd strolling down Sparks towards the flats? Or just an everyday flow of walking commuters, visitors, lunch-goers?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Good Lord, no. No no no no no no no no no. Even with the addition of skip-stop or limited routes, half-hour frequencies for local service is waaaay too low..

You haven't seen limited-stop routes in action.

In Kingston the limited stop routes have cannibalized a huge amount of local transit ridership. The express service on Princess Street stops every ~700m or so, by contrast the local service stops every ~250m or so. The local service gets healthy ridership only when it comes in between two express trips. Whenever they're around the same time, the express will be full and the local will have maybe 5 people on it.

When you have numbers like that, it makes sense for local service to have 30 min frequencies (the minimum frequency at which transit has a reasonable utility for non-choice riders), and instead save the 15 minutes or less service (the minimum frequency at which transit is attractive for choice riders) for express routes.

Give people the option of walking an extra few minutes to a faster bus route, and the lion's share of people will take it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

You haven't seen limited-stop routes in action.

Yes, I have.

Give people the option of walking an extra few minutes to a faster bus route, and the lion's share of people will take it.

That's just it: I guarantee you, in OCTrasnpottawa, you'd see reduced frequencies overall. Poor frequencies on the local service, and poor frequencies on the limiteds, esp. on the 12, where it is politically safe to cannibalize high-capacity buses and runs to re-assign to the suburbs.

Mark my words, after LRT comes in, you will see another cut to east-end service to re-assign capacity to the feeder routes from Orleans to Blair and from the west end to Tunneys.