Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Certainly the bus routes in the area make little sense. The 14 is pretty direct but the rest are all Rideau to St. Laurent via 50 side streets.

The 7 is reasonably direct. From Beechwood to the Rideau Centre is actually a pretty fast trip considering. But yes, a lot of the routes in that area are way too windy.

I'd like to see a considerable rethink of the route network in the "urban east" (Sandy Hill, Lowertown, Vanier, New Edinburgh, Overbrook, etc). Right now the service is too oriented around getting transit as close as possible to everyone's houses and not oriented enough around actually getting somewhere in a reasonable timeframe. Despite its urban layout the service is almost suburban in this respect. The 5 is one of the worst offenders for this.

A good place to start would be an express route version of the 12 (call it the 112 or something) that would only stop at major stops on the way.

[Vanier]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Certainly the bus routes in the area make little sense. The 14 is pretty direct but the rest are all Rideau to St. Laurent via 50 side streets.

You forgot the 12 which runs the length of Montreal Road to Ogilvy and ends at Blair. This bus route is so over subscribed it has become a ridiculous "clown car". This is worsened by the number of wheelchairs, scooters and baby carriages that use that route. Between 3 p.m. and 7 p.m. the buses are almost always cheek to jowl from Rideau to Centre Street.

A large percentage of people in Vanier use transit yet we get some of the worst service in the city. It is deplorable that the city is funding transit for non users in the suburbs and not running LRT through Vanier or along Bank.

Think of Toronto without the Bloor/Youge street subway lines. This is what Ottawa is aiming for, a non rational east/west, north/south system.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Certainly the bus routes in the area make little sense. The 14 is pretty direct but the rest are all Rideau to St. Laurent via 50 side streets.

I have no trouble with the routings - Vanier's street grid makes it hard to have linear services, other than the important Montreal axis - but the utter lack of interest by the city in instituting transit priority measures, or in ensuring that the service corresponds to demand, is astounding. Basic stuff like running routes using artics when the load demands it, as it often does on the 7 or even the 1 on Beechwood, and the 14 to the south, and as it pretty well ALWAYS does on the 12.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I'd like to see a considerable rethink of the route network in the "urban east" (Sandy Hill, Lowertown, Vanier, New Edinburgh, Overbrook, etc). Right now the service is too oriented around getting transit as close as possible to everyone's houses and not oriented enough around actually getting somewhere in a reasonable timeframe. Despite its urban layout the service is almost suburban in this respect. The 5 is one of the worst offenders for this.

The 5 has been straightened as much as it can be. There is no way to provide services to the places it serves - Montfort, the community centre, the north side of Vanier - without it getting all bendy on you.

A good place to start would be an express route version of the 12 (call it the 112 or something) that would only stop at major stops on the way.

Better yet: morning rush-hour 12s that only go into service westbound at St. Laurent, to give Vanier residents half a chance of getting a seat on a bus, instead of having to stand. Kinda the east-side equivalent of the 2s that only begin at Westboro. Might also be room for some "short-start" 7s on the Beechwood run, as many 7s arrive on the Beechwood portion already packed to the brim with Manor Parkers.

Also, iron-clad commitments to high-capacity buses running on the 12 - there are WAAAAY too many 40-footers on this service, and some TPMs along the corridor.

But nope - TPMs and high-capacity buses are for suburbanites.

Enjoy your LRT, suburbanites, and thank some urbanites for paying for it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Vanier

You forgot the 12 which runs the length of Montreal Road to Ogilvy and ends at Blair. This bus route is so over subscribed it has become a ridiculous "clown car". This is worsened by the number of wheelchairs, scooters and baby carriages that use that route. Between 3 p.m. and 7 p.m. the buses are almost always cheek to jowl from Rideau to Centre Street.

I am strongly of the opinion that passengers with wheels should have to board LAST. Waiting for wheelchairs, scooters, and strollers to get parked inside the front compartment holds up boarding.

Of course, it doesn't help when OC Transpo doesn't have enough artics on this run, and when drivers consistently refuse to open the middle and rear doors at boarding stops.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The 7 is reasonably direct. From Beechwood to the Rideau Centre is actually a pretty fast trip considering. But yes, a lot of the routes in that area are way too windy.

I'd like to see a considerable rethink of the route network in the "urban east" (Sandy Hill, Lowertown, Vanier, New Edinburgh, Overbrook, etc). Right now the service is too oriented around getting transit as close as possible to everyone's houses and not oriented enough around actually getting somewhere in a reasonable timeframe. Despite its urban layout the service is almost suburban in this respect. The 5 is one of the worst offenders for this.

A good place to start would be an express route version of the 12 (call it the 112 or something) that would only stop at major stops on the way.

No, in the centre of the city we should be bringing transit close to as many people as possible. It has to be convenient and has to support many people with mobility issues. As I pointed out a while back, express buses will only work if we are prepared to invest a lot more money. We cannot start putting bus stops 1 km apart in the city centre with poor service in between. Where does this leave the elderly and the disabled and mothers with strollers? We need to be supportive in delivering very good service to people making short trips. These are the most cost effective trips in the system especially compared to trips such as between Stittsville and downtown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That route would be useless.

If we're going with a Rideau streetcar, have it run on the Cummings Bridge into Vanier.

Really? Do you realize that streetcars never went past Rideau and Charlotte and were obviously well patronized for over 60 years?

My suggestion was designed to rejuvenate Rideau Street that has suffered badly since the Rideau Centre opened in 1983. We need to encourage retail, commercial and residential redevelopment on the length of Rideau and what better way than a modern streetcar to encourage people to go beyond the Rideau Centre.

Sure, you might want to extend it in time, but where is the money going to come from for another mega project?

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Really? Do you realize that streetcars never went past Rideau and Charlotte and were obviously well patronized for over 60 years?

My suggestion was designed to rejuvenate Rideau Street that has suffered badly since the Rideau Centre opened in 1983. We need to encourage retail, commercial and residential redevelopment on the length of Rideau and what better way than a modern streetcar to encourage people to go beyond the Rideau Centre.

Sure, you might want to extend it in time, but where is the money going to come from for another mega project?

Adding a streetcar on Rideau only would accomplish what exactly today other than compete for space with the 7, 12, 14, & 18?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Really? Do you realize that streetcars never went past Rideau and Charlotte and were obviously well patronized for over 60 years?

It worked half a century ago, not sure it would work so well today. A Rideau-Laurier loop fails to efficiently serve the destination patterns of people who live in the area. Rideau Street works fine, but a Laurier loop is pointless. Someone living on Laurier wouldn't ride around in a giant circle to shop on Rideau when they can just walk to Rideau Street.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

No, in the centre of the city we should be bringing transit close to as many people as possible.

But by doing so you make the travel times go up like crazy. Having a bus right outside my door is pointless if the bus has to circle around and around to get there.

I used to live in Sandy Hill. My sister lives in Vanier. When I visited her, I could take either the 5 or the 7. The 5 stopped right outside my door (literally), and about a 2 minute walk from my sister's place. The 7 was about 5 minutes away from me and 5 minutes away from my sister. Despite the longer walks to the 7 it was actually faster in door-to-door travel to take the 7 rather than the 5. And that's not even considering that the 7 is considerably more frequent. With the 7, the fast travel time and high frequencies meant I could visit my sister spontaneously. With the 5, I would have to plan.

A similar thing happens in Kingston with visiting my boyfriend. There's two buses I can take to get to his house from mine. Both stop at my door. One stops about a 10 minute walk from his house, the other about a 2-3 minute walk. The bus with the 10 minute walk is faster door-to-door because the other one follows a very circuitous route.

In the centre of the city, we can actually make transit routes and stops further apart from each other because it's so much more pedestrian friendly and people can be expected to walk further distances.

[1overcosc]

I should emphasize that I'm not advocating eliminating the door-to-door style routes. They work well for people with mobility limitations and such. What I'm saying is they should be pared back to half-hour service while frequent service (in the order of ~10 minutes) delivered to a network of fast, straight-line, limited stop routes. This is exactly what Kingston is doing. What used to be 15-minute frequency local service on Princess Street was replaced with 30-minute frequency local service and 15-minute frequency express service. And ridership on that very route shot up 20% within months.

The express service is not only faster (22 minutes on the express trips vs. 30 minutes on the local trips) it's also considerably more reliable.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

But by doing so you make the travel times go up like crazy. Having a bus right outside my door is pointless if the bus has to circle around and around to get there.

I used to live in Sandy Hill. My sister lives in Vanier. When I visited her, I could take either the 5 or the 7. The 5 stopped right outside my door (literally), and about a 2 minute walk from my sister's place. The 7 was about 5 minutes away from me and 5 minutes away from my sister. Despite the longer walks to the 7 it was actually faster in door-to-door travel to take the 7 rather than the 5. And that's not even considering that the 7 is considerably more frequent. With the 7, the fast travel time and high frequencies meant I could visit my sister spontaneously. With the 5, I would have to plan.

A similar thing happens in Kingston with visiting my boyfriend. There's two buses I can take to get to his house from mine. Both stop at my door. One stops about a 10 minute walk from his house, the other about a 2-3 minute walk. The bus with the 10 minute walk is faster door-to-door because the other one follows a very circuitous route.

In the centre of the city, we can actually make transit routes and stops further apart from each other because it's so much more pedestrian friendly and people can be expected to walk further distances.

And this is the problem. We assume that making people walk further is a good idea. Walking takes time and if you are carrying bags??? The further we make people walk, the more we eliminate short transit trips.

And as far as having choices of transit routes, great, and choose the one best for you. Your neighbour will have a different destination and may make a different route choice.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I should emphasize that I'm not advocating eliminating the door-to-door style routes. They work well for people with mobility limitations and such. What I'm saying is they should be pared back to half-hour service while frequent service (in the order of ~10 minutes) delivered to a network of fast, straight-line, limited stop routes. This is exactly what Kingston is doing. What used to be 15-minute frequency local service on Princess Street was replaced with 30-minute frequency local service and 15-minute frequency express service. And ridership on that very route shot up 20% within months.

The express service is not only faster (22 minutes on the express trips vs. 30 minutes on the local trips) it's also considerably more reliable.

As I mentioned, doing this requires an additional transit investment and that is exactly what Kingston did. They found an untapped market by providing a better commuter service. This might also happen in Ottawa but there is no appetite to spend more especially with so much money going into the Confederation Line for the foreseeable future.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It worked half a century ago, not sure it would work so well today. A Rideau-Laurier loop fails to efficiently serve the destination patterns of people who live in the area. Rideau Street works fine, but a Laurier loop is pointless. Someone living on Laurier wouldn't ride around in a giant circle to shop on Rideau when they can just walk to Rideau Street.

You might if you are carrying 5 bags of groceries or if you live 3 blocks south of Laurier or if your destination is at Rideau Centre or the Market.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The 5 has been straightened as much as it can be. There is no way to provide services to the places it serves - Montfort, the community centre, the north side of Vanier - without it getting all bendy on you.

The 5 goes on four detours that takes it out of its general direction of travel (Montfort, Brittany, Pere Blanc and sometimes that retirement home), only one of which saves a walk of more than 2 minutes (or the amount of walking required to get to the eggs in most supermarkets).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

No, in the centre of the city we should be bringing transit close to as many people as possible. It has to be convenient and has to support many people with mobility issues. As I pointed out a while back, express buses will only work if we are prepared to invest a lot more money. We cannot start putting bus stops 1 km apart in the city centre with poor service in between. Where does this leave the elderly and the disabled and mothers with strollers? We need to be supportive in delivering very good service to people making short trips. These are the most cost effective trips in the system especially compared to trips such as between Stittsville and downtown.

There might be room for a Vancouver- or Calgary-style limited-stop service along the three major axes (Rideau-Montreal; Bank; Somerset-Wellington-Richmond), but as a COMPLEMENT to existing local service, not as a SUBSTITUTE for it.

The limited-stop buses that serve UBC, or the one that serves the north side of the Bow River in Calgary, are models that could be adapted.

But again, complement, not substitute.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Really? Do you realize that streetcars never went past Rideau and Charlotte and were obviously well patronized for over 60 years?

It was also a very different neighbourhood and transit system then. If we were ever going to install fixed transit along that axis now - and we won't, because suburbanized Ottawa is too cheap and too focused on the suburbs - then it really has to continue into Vanier, at least as far as St-Laurent blvd.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I should emphasize that I'm not advocating eliminating the door-to-door style routes. They work well for people with mobility limitations and such. What I'm saying is they should be pared back to half-hour service

Good Lord, no. No no no no no no no no no. Even with the addition of skip-stop or limited routes, half-hour frequencies for local service is waaaay too low.

Mind you, none of these innovations will ever happen, because OC Transpo and city council simply do not care about local transit service in the core. That has been made abundantly clear during the nearly 20 years I have been banging my head against that brick wall.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The 5 goes on four detours that takes it out of its general direction of travel (Montfort, Brittany, Pere Blanc and sometimes that retirement home), only one of which saves a walk of more than 2 minutes (or the amount of walking required to get to the eggs in most supermarkets).

All of those "detours" ARE its general direction of travel.

Those places are what the 5 is meant to serve. These are FEATURES of the route, not bugs.

The 5 generally makes good time along those portions of the route. The bottlenecks are on Beechwood (in the morning); Laurier East near U of O (mornings and many other times); and at random intervals on approach to/from Billings. There are a few other bugs, like getting caught up behind NAC garage traffic northbound on Elgin when there are events, but those are the big bugs.

Oh - and seriously, U of O students who live within a few blocks of campus in Sandy Hill, can't you walk? This is another source of delay, esp. with 40-footers.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

All of those "detours" ARE its general direction of travel.

Those places are what the 5 is meant to serve. These are FEATURES of the route, not bugs.

Fine, but adding a bunch of dead-end detours to save a 2 minute walk adds a lot of time to the route (45 minutes to get from St. Laurent to Rideau Centre if it is on schedule) which pushes riders onto other (overcrowded) routes or into cars (which further slows down bus service in the area).